And since it has a massive effect on gun sales. There is a big money involved in keeping the issue highly polarized. So that laws are inconsistent and mercurial. So that high margin products are protected. So that purchasing a gun is an ideological concern, rather than a practical one.
LOOK OUT GUYS ITS A SLIPPERY SLOPE.
The NRA’s budget for direct lobbying is a fraction of what they spend on pushing their agenda. Mother fuckers run a TV network.
This is their money at work for just 2018, three pages.
The NRA has a budget north of a quarter billion dollars a year. They bring in and spend about that much anually. Its weirdly had to find specific numbers for recent years too. Easily sourcable numbers date to around 2010-2013 and sit around $350 million across their various subsidaries.
Even if you look just at baldly political spending in Washington and on elections the numbers are much, much higher than the “hey they only spent x on lobbying/political contributions this year”.
You know what they say about “assuming,” right?
The rural counties south of New Orleans and in the NOLA-Baton Rouge corridor have higher gun violence rates than either of those cities. The rate is similar to Chicago, which has been described by some as “carnage.”
I have. You may be right. I’m sure that people who get a gun at a gas station have fully thought out and prepared for their purchase. 
Friend of mine bought a shotgun at a truck stop in (I think) Wyoming. Middle of nowhere and not a spot anyone would regularly travel to, or deliberately seek out for a fire arms purchase.
My sister picked up some ninja stars and a big box of sketchy porno at the same spot.
I’ve seen guns (handguns, shotguns) for sale at truck stops and, especially, flea markets all over the midwest. Easy to get ahold of in places they most definitely should not be.
I’ve only ever seen antiques and parts at flea markets. But my flea market experience is limited to NY, NJ and the parts of Pensylvania near Philly.
I do remember a Piggly Wiggly in South Carolina that had a display of firing pins, and parts kits for AK-47s shelved near the trading cards and candy.
And the last time my neighborhood had a large team up yard sale. There were five or so guys who showed up at open and went from house to house asking if there were any guns for sale. Even the houses that weren’t participating.
It was fucking weird.
Thanks. I had just looked at lobbying numbers before. It did seem low.
Lets hope that does not happen. There are no perfect metaphors.
But sometimes such descriptions are accurate. If they managed a ban on high capacity magazines, would they just stop? Or AR15s? Is there any gun control proposal that, if passed, would end the debate? Or would we end up with an absurd #knifefree campaign, which is probably itself just a step towards the next thing?
I know some people who are actually serious collectors of guns who set up a table with a few guns at flea markets, primarily because they are hoping someone will show up to sell the rare rifle that grandpa brought back from Europe. But those guys who set up the tables are licensed dealers, and do everything by the book, including background checks. That may not be the case for everyone who sells at a flea market, but probably is for people who make a business of it.
Of course not. That’s why it’s so great! Keeps the rubes at each others’ throats while the rich get richer.
Unlikely since 1 side of the “debate” is almost entirely opposed to regulation of any kind. And is unlikely to accept any new regulation. And will argue against it as a slippery slope.
But as the gun control movement is not, in large part, about eradicating all guns the answer to that is gun regulations that work. What precise outcome is most desired, and how to best bring it about is the discussion that the most influential parties on the subject refuse to engage in.
And you’re still doing that thing where when some one criticizes your claims or pokes holes in them. You simply reiterate that claim.
Just because they do it entirely in accordance with the law. Doesn’t mean its an appropriate place to be selling fire arms. Personally I don’t see much issue with collectable and vintage firearms showing up in antique and flea markets, but I have issues with the broad sale of fire arms and componants of all types through such venues.
Doing everything by the book, following the letter of the law. Isn’t a particularly compelling response to some some one arguing those laws are inadequate. And “I know a guy who does it right” doesn’t really make up for the fact that this exact sales venue is where that whole gunshow loophole thrives.
There are already quite a few regulations. Thousands. And most gun owners, and gun organizations, support strong enforcement of current laws which are often not enforced as they should be. Like the laws against straw purchases, and strengthening the background check system.
A good example of that is the bump stock issue. After Las Vegas, there was a call to ban bump stocks. This was supported by the NRA as well. Bump stocks were only made legal because the ATF issued a specific exemption from the NFA rules. The NRA advocated for the ATF to reconsider the exemption and withdraw the exemption letter, which it can do at any time. No laws needed to be passed or debated. But Feinstein introduced legislation to ban bump stocks, but written in an overly broad way that would likely ban all sorts of unrelated things. I don’t know if the plan was to slide legislation in that allows broad restrictions, the way that the Patriot Act did, or if the idea was to introduce legislation that the NRA was sure to oppose, so they could be accused of being obstructionist. But in the end, broad support on both sides of the issue could have led to a quick and uncontroversial reversal of the ATF exception and a National Ban on bump stocks.
If I am unwilling to support the trendy new ban on whatever Bloomberg is focused on this week, that does not mean I oppose any and all gun regulations. Lets keep guns out of the hands of criminals and people who are obviously a danger. Lets enforce tough penalties for breaking current laws, instead of doling out probation for people who buy large quantities of guns to resell to gang members or terrorists. Lets make sure that dangerous people do not pass background checks.
And the “gun show loophole” remains fictional. Gun sales at shows are required to follow the same rules as if they were conducted anywhere else. Not only that, at every show I have attended in the last couple of decades, police officers examine and tag every single gun brought in, and check the documents of every dealer on site. People do often bring a gun to the show to sell, but all the laws apply. It would be a terrible place to try to sell a stolen or illegal gun, because of the police inspection at the gate. It would be a terrible place for a prohibited person to buy a gun, for the same reason. A loophole implies that there is some sort of special exemption to background checks at a gun show, but that is not the case.
A lot of this conversation is closely related to people not really understanding current gun laws, but having very strong opinions of how they should be rewritten anyway.
This past summer I went to a flea market in Delaware OH in which one guy, right by the entrance, had an AR-15 propped up on a display stand with a sign that said “works great! Ask for info!” or some such thing, as if it was a weed whacker or used DVD player. Nobody seemed to think this was the slightest bit out of the ordinary.
Also NOT TRUE. As evidenced by what folks have said here, and by my personal experience, guns are commonly sold as “collectibles” at gun shows and flea markets with zero oversight.
“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations.”
They must be private sales face to face. With handguns they have to be from the same state. Rifles and shotguns may be from a different state if the state law allows. Can’t knowingly sell to a prohibited person. Nothing on the NFA list can be sold this way. (machine guns, short barreled rifles, suppressors, etc) “Collectable” has nothing to do with it, unless it has been rendered non-functional. Though old black powder muzzle loaders aren’t considered firearms.
The vast majority of booths at a gun show are owned by FFLs and all of them go through NICS checks. Same with pawn shops.
So it is “private sales” loop hole, and people really should call it what it is, because that is what you are wanting to legislate. Same as if you put an ad to sell your gun in the news paper (I assume some people still do that.) Or sell a gun at a garage sale.
So the worry is criminals are going to gun shows or finding private buyers and tricking them into selling them a gun when they are prohibited. But there isn’t really data to support this. And old survey of prisoners in for gun crimes showed something like 8% got them from a gun show or flea market (IIRC, I can go dig it up). A newer study from Pittsburgh showed most guns were either stolen or technically owned by someone else (ie straw purchase). And anecdotally, people I know who have sold locally usually want a CCW or drivers license just to cover their ass. When there were Facebook BST groups, they would blast out anyone known to be a felon. Including people who just had dope in their feed. Most people do some diligence. Those prone to no diligence aren’t going to follow any new laws requiring private sales go through NICS.
So, yeah, I guess we could make every private sale go through NICS. If they do that I would like to see the seller be able to call the NICS system or go through a website and verify the sale. Otherwise you are just going to have FFLs tack on $20 to every private sale.
I guess I’d say this: I’ve been to plenty of flea markets, antique shows, and garage sales, and if some guy put out flasks and jugs of homemade moonshine, selling liquor right out in the open, he’d be rounded up very quickly, and people would say ‘what a moron, everybody knows you can’t sell booze openly’. But somehow folks can put out semi-automatic weapons, shotguns, and handguns, and nobody bats an eye. That seems like an awfully big loophole in the priority in which things are policed.
Its called the Private Sale Exemption and it’s a real thing. Private sales are exempted on the federal level from background checks, or even a establishing if the buyer has a license for what’s being purchased.
We label it the gun show loophole because of the critical mass of such sales that happen, at the commercial level at gun shows. Additionally gun shows are major nexus for Straw Purchases. Where by guns are purchased entirely legally, with background checks and all that biz. But are handed off for 3rd parties. A very large proportion of the fire arms used in gun crime in NYC (one of those “urban liberal” areas littered with crime and murder you seem so concerned about) can be traced back to gun shows in nearby states like Pennsylvania and Vermont with looser gun laws.
So again. Hammering on the fact that people are following the rules. Is not a valid response. To the fact that the rules themselves are inadequate.
The ATF has also had the power to fix the major vector for unregistered home built guns and so called ghost guns. For decades. A major driver in that scene, and the reason AR-15’s and derivatives are among the most popular home built gun. Is because the ATF classifies the lower half of the 2 part receiver as the “gun” part of the gun. Requiring serial number etc. Because that bit doesn’t need to be as strong, isn’t as complex, and doesn’t need to be built with the same precision as the upper reciever. It becomes really simple to manufacture those 90% complete parts one can finish with a god damn dremel. All of the operative parts can be purchases with no oversight, checks or licensing. Even online. Its been an issue since the 90’s. The ATF could obviate most of the problem with simple reclassification.
And still hasn’t even as such guns have become more of a public issue and concern for law makers. So why should we wait on any of these for the ATF to get their shit together? Why not fix the law if we can beat them to it?
Yes all gun laws are intended as a conspiracy to smear the NRA and slip in draconian restrictions.
As much as the NRA, eventually “backed” banning bump stocks. Once they’d been backed into a corner on it. This is their statement on the subject. Its got a shot at Obama, as well as a big ole reference to them being approved twice. Its pretty fucking washy. But their own spokes people as @nungesser points out, contradicted that statement. And once the ATF did reclassify bump stocks multiple firearms groups filed complaints and threatened law suits. There’s been a lot of stink about the ATF “exceeding their authority”. And a fair bit of the pro-gun lobby seems to now be arguing that the ATF doesn’t have the express legal authority to do that sort of thing.
That doesn’t exactly sound like “advocating” and “supporting” to me.
But again. Reference to the rules and structures we have. Aren’t a valid response to complaints that the rules are structures we have are inadequate.
Pick a thing that’s regulated under a law. There’s going to be “thousands” of things in it.
A fair bit of the reason there are “thousands” of gun laws. Is that the vast bulk of our gun regulation is handled on a state by state, municipality by municipality basis. An inconsistent mish mash of contradictory regulation. That can sometimes change over the span of just a few miles.
A situation that is best fixed with federal involvement. 1 consistent nationwide regime of regulation.
Consistency is the number 1 thing gun owners call for when asked about firearms regulation.
And it will only come with a federal program.
Federal involvement is the number on thing the gun lobby opposes.
The existence of regulation, or even number of regulations. Is not automatically a bad thing. And isn’t an indication of the effectiveness of said regulations. You’re really hammering that regulation bad thing. For someone who’s so concerned that the regulations are followed. Are they adequate and important to enforce? Or they excessive and the start of slippery slope?
Like the NRA’s position on bump stocks it sounds an awful lot like you’re trying to have it both ways.
Straw purchasing firearms is a felony. And if you are selling multiple firearms under the private sale exemption, you are also committing a felony, worth five years and $250K. From the ATF:
“Courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.”
So if you are concerned with the illegal guns flowing into urban areas, it might be advisable to enforce the current laws, which already have provisions for heavy punishments attached.
The bump stock issue is really about most gun owners and associations believing that they were already illegal under the 1934 laws. It is baffling that the ATF issued an exemption letter for bump stocks. Twice.
The way the system works is if you invent some new firearm or accessory, you have to ask the ATF to determine whether it complies with existing law. If they determine that the item complies, they issue you a letter which allows you to possess the item, or sell it if you have the right licenses and permits. They can also withdraw the letter at any time. I had this happen to me once, and I had to turn in a gun to be destroyed. This happens pretty regularly, and generates little controversy.
Well I’d be fine with letting people sell small private batches of booze legally as well. I suppose there is the whole health and safety standards, and the other laws surrounding booze in general.
But no one bats an eye because it isn’t illegal. Is that consistent when compared to booze? No, but it is also irrational booze is legal and weed isn’t. When you figure out why the world doesn’t make sense please fill me in.
Though you also can’t sell firearms as a business with out an FFL. What constitutes a business? That is murky and ill defined. I do know of collectors who got a visit from the ATF because they bought several similar guns. But they just love that type of gun and collect all the varieties. Once they confirmed he bought and kept them all they were on their way.
I need to come with you to antique shops, flea markets, and garage sales. I never find anything like that around here. Though maybe I show up late to the garage sales…
The only firearms I have seen in Antique stores are actual antiques which aren’t even considered firearms as they are muzzle loading black powder. You can buy those new with no checks. They aren’t legally firearms.
Dunno about selling. Any consumable/food there are potential issues with health and safety. I don’t see why we couldn’t allow home distilling, though might be wise to require some sort of training or licensing. A still can turn into an accidental bomb pretty easy.
For all the farting about I don’t have too much of an issue with private gun sales. Or even gun shows when you get down to it. It would just make far sense to run those things through a dealer who can run a background check. You mention $20. That’s pretty cheap for processing some paperwork and making sure everything is solid and registered properly. And that sort of thing tends to protect buyers as well as sellers. The last time I had something notarized it cost me more than that.
My state does it this way. Though they limit the fee to $10. And its really no impediment to private sales, or even much of a mild inconvenience. My uncle the fire arms instructor with way too many guns, buys most of his guns this way. And he prefers it. It makes it easier for him to get everything squared away and registered properly. And makes a nice excuse for him to hang out with his favorite gun smith who does the paperwork and background checks for him. Think he pays him in beer.
It has the effect of limiting gun shows largely to FFL holders. Which means what few gun shows there are in NY are considerably smaller and less popular than over the line into PA. Read into that what you will.
