So, what flavor is the kool-aid?
They’re not actual fascists, for one.
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It’s hard not to infer some sort of ulterior motive in the face of recycled rhetoric from 30 years ago
If the core of our argument is, not only is Joe Biden exactly like Bill Clinton, but also Donald Trump is exactly like Bob Dole, and thus, as in a middle-school math problem, we prove they’re all exactly the same … we have entered the realm of unintentional comedy
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Thank you for rehashing all of these Russian propaganda talking points while glossing over all of the racism and the misogyny and the people whose lives were ruined or at least thrown into disarray by the reign of racism and misogyny. (Supreme Court, schmupreme wart, am I right?) And way to dig up shit on the Democrats from the 1990s, comrade!
It’s good to know that so many women and POC were all worried over nothing because it was all just a matter of workers (who all happened to be white) feeling abandoned by the political party that is actually raising the minimum wage in many cities and states, fighting to keep unions alive in many states (just look at which states have “right to work” laws and which ones do not) and just generally empowering workers in many states. Oh, but they would never do all of those things at the national level, even if they could, which they can’t, but they are clearly lying to us when the say that they would, right? /s
Have the Greens ever won an election at the national level? Hell, at the state level? Who do you blame for that?
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What exactly do you think his voters are supporting if not right-wing sado-populism?
Ah, it’s just “economic anxiety” driving people to fascism. It doesn’t matter whether it’s the NYT, “reasonable” Republicans, Russian disinfo social media posts, or useful-idiot brocialists and dirtbag leftists trotting out that silly explanation; in the end it amounts to the same thing: “pay no attention to the bigotry and sexism and anti-Semitism and anti-intellectualism that’s endemic in at least a third of the American electorate”.
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Have you seriously ignored all the replies above outlining the things the Biden administration has accomplished in less than a year, despite the committed obstructionist policies of the Republicans? I doubt many of us here are Biden fans, and most of us would have rather had someone else to vote for, but if 4 years of Trump was not enough of a slap in the face to wake up anyone still clinging to “they are both the same, it doesn’t matter, why even vote” types, then you really are unreachable. This has gone on long enough.
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Oh, right, the right wing talking point: “flyover country”. I was born and raised in the Midwest, and currently live in rural Indiana. As in, the nearest town has fewer than 500 people, one gas station, one post office, one breakfast cafe, and a church. I’ve never heard a Democratic voter or politician use the phrase, but it’s quite common among local Republicans.
What she said was that a certain percentage of Trump voters were “deplorable” and beyond reaching with facts and debate. Turns out she was wrong: the correct percentage is much higher, as we’ve since learned.
When you use partisan talking points without irony or explanation, you prove something very different than what you seem to intend.
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The difference is already appreciable. My life, specifically, really is measurably better under Biden than it was under Trump.
But who I’m I gonna believe? Some dude on the internet or my lying eyes?
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This is not fucking soft-shoe.
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If Democrats were friendly to Trump’s brand of populist xenophobic nonsense then he would have remained a Democrat.
Anyway you can’t just make up nonsensical “What If…” scenarios to prove both parties are the same. That would be like me saying “Imagine a universe in which the Green Party reanimated Josef Stalin through dark magic and nominated him in 2016 instead of Jill Stein. How dare you criticize anyone else after voting for Zombie Stalin, you necromancing hypocrite!”
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No. No they would not. This is ridiculous
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These conversations always go the same way. One sea lion demanding third parties because something something nirvana fallacy, and the adults in the room demanding they hold their noses and vote in self defence.
These arguments never resolve, in my humble opinion, because the framing is wrong (bad faith bro sea-lioning aside).
People are treating voting as the solution to the problems. In the US, it is not. Voting in the US is a necessary rear-guard action. You vote D to hold the line, then fight the real fight for change everywhere else. Working on PACs, funding the ACLU, helping people like Stacey Abrams, fighting for campaign finance reform, etc. The voting system in the US is deeply, deeply broken. You don’t fix a broken car by driving it even harder. You nurse it along while you fix the issues.
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Funny how that happens, ain’t it?
Almost as if it’s by design…
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If I may: IMHO, we vote D because this is the party that is closest to where we want to be, then work to push that party closer to where we want to be. It is incremental, I admit, but in a 2-party system like we have, it’s the only option available. The other options are voting R, which, I mean, seriously? Or not voting. And yes, I include “protest votes” as not voting. 2016 showed how a very few votes can swing an election. I can’t prove this, but I have a suspicion that there were folks who voted 3rd party or stayed home in PA, WI and others sufficient to make up the very small gap, and most were probably convinced that their vote did not matter. This is before we consider FL and Bush v Gore. Votes matter. A country of this size isn’t going to turn on a dime. For the Trump Era, that really was a blessing. Truly. Anyone who thinks Biden in office is no different than 4 more years of Trump? Tell you are a cis, het, white, financially secure male without telling me.
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If no one ever votes for them, how are they supposed to become a viable option?
Certainly not by the graciousness and goodwill of the Democrats - they’ll spend energy trying to remove them from any ballot where they think a Green presence is detrimental. They did it in Ohio in 2004. They did it in Texas and Pennsylvania in 2020.
For a party that claims to care about voter rights, they have no qualms in disenfranchising voters they think should be in their back pocket because of ‘reasons.’
As has already been pointed out to you, there is very good documentation of Green Party campaigns being bankrolled by Republican organizations for the express purpose of splitting of Democratic and Progressive voters. If having more Republicans in office is your goal, this is a great way to accomplish this. The answer in this country, is to work within the Dem party to push them further left, increase social power held by the various minority groups and out Republican talking points where ever they raise their fascist heads. And “stay home, don’t vote if the Dems are not far enough left for you” is one of them.
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Right. It’s kind of like taking public transit: there probably isn’t going to be a bus that takes you directly to your final destination, but it’s better to hop on the one that gets you closer to where you want to be than to sit in a derelict car that doesn’t go anywhere at all.
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Band name. Called it.
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By trying to break the duopoly by focusing not on electing candidates but on electoral reform like (e.g.) ranked-choice voting and campaign finance reform. They will not become a viable option under the current system, so if the party’s politicians are eager to be more what they are right now (GOP-funded spoilers, wasted votes, and vehicles for virtue-signaling) then that should be the focus of their efforts.
It’s not an easy task and they won’t get any help from the DNC, but that doesn’t mean that liberal and progressive voters who usually hold their noses and vote for Dems wouldn’t support their efforts.
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