Antifa hackers deface Klan site

I must say, I am a bit disappointed to see comments to the effect that, because they are Israeli, they should do something about the Palestinian situation and/or questioning whether they support Israel’s policy on Palestine. I am not saying that they shouldn’t do something about Palestine, but it does seem that these questions are being asked only because they are Israeli.

They are anonymous hackers claiming association with Antifa (which is not even an organization which can respond to these questions) and who have hacked a Klan site. What part of that information would give the impression that they support the Netanyahu regime? Their citizenship alone is no reason to question their motives.

If French hackers had done this, we wouldn’t be asking, “Well, why don’t they do something about Marine Le Pen?”

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You’re reading an implication here that isn’t present in what I see. Nobody is saying that this action suggests they support Netanyahu in any way, shape or form. It’s simply being suggested that they might have just as good (if not better) targets far closer to home, and that their efforts are equally if not more needed there. Which is unequivocally true. The US has >300m inhabitants. I’m sure it can muster up its own antifa hackers to go against the Klan. Israel has <10m inhabitants, and thus a far smaller pool of potential antifa hackers. Exporting the efforts of the ones they have to a better equipped nation thus seems inefficient and poorly thought out.

You really do not see such an implication in the above comment?
Also, again, Antifa is not an organizer that musters hackers. If America has so many Antifa hackers, why haven’t American hackers already done this? Why should hackers in any country bother to do something in another country when they have their own problems at home? The implication is loud and clear: “Because they are Israeli, they must take on fascism in Israel and nowhere else. Doing good elsewhere doesn’t count as long as bad things happen in their own backyard.”

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Ah, I didn’t read your post as a response to that, but to the posts by @Fred_Cairns, @Mangochin and @anon61221983. I frankly didn’t bother taking into account unsubstantiated claims like the post you quoted there - unless they have proof of what they’re saying, they’re just spreading FUD, and aren’t worth engaging with.

As for the rest: no, again, you’re taking this way too far. This is clearly a good thing. And it’s perfectly okay for them to pick whichever targets they feel are relevant to them. That doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to point out the rather glaring incongruity of Israeli hackers targeting a (currently not that relevant/powerful - there are definitely more dangerous fascist groups in the US) US fascist organization rather than the fascists that hold actual political power in their own country. Saying this is a weird choice and that their efforts would probably be more valuable elsewhere is in no way saying that their efforts are wrong, don’t count, or are otherwise bad. You’re presenting what amounts to constructive criticism as some sort of black-and-white dismissal of their efforts, which … well, please stop doing that, yeah? If your reading strips nuance from what other people are saying, your reading is problematic.

As for “if there are so many US antifa hackers out there, why haven’t they…”, that’s just a derailing tactic. There will always be more possible targets for political action than people willing and able to carry out said action. As I said, there are no doubt US antifa hackers who could take on the Klan - but obviously only if they see that as a worthwhile operation. If not, they might choose other targets from whichever criteria they deem important. That’s up to them, but such action or the lack thereof bears no relation whatsoever to the above point that it’s rather weird for an Israeli antifa group to target a US fascist group when they have bigger, more powerful, more important targets closer to home. Again, they are obviously free to pick whoever they want, but that doesn’t mean they are immune to those choices being criticized.

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Yes, I was pointing out those posts as well. I just picked the most blatant example to make my point. And “constructive criticism” isn’t constructive if you don’t say it directly to the people being criticized. Criticizing them here is just sniping, and it is dismissive of their efforts.

Of course hackers are not immune to having their hacking choices criticized. But the only reason their decision is being criticized in this case is because they are Israeli. They are being criticized not for what they did, but for what they didn’t do and only because of their nationality. Full stop. Hell, if you were criticizing them for taking on such a minor organization as the Klan, that would be fine because you wouldn’t be criticizing them based solely on their nationality. See the difference? I am not stripping nuance. I am pointing out prejudice.

Fascism is a global phenomenon. Hacking is a global phenomenon. There is no reason to point out the fact that they have a fascist government at home as though it is their fault or responsibility, just because of the country in which they were born.

And you are applying the exact same logic as people who say things like, “Money spent on foreign aid would be better used feeding the poor at home,” or, “Why are people in Berlin protesting something that happened in America?” I am not mischaracterizing your argument. I am pointing out that it is the same kind of argument as these, and based solely on their nationality to boot. It is not their fault that they are Israeli, and their citizenship does not give them extra responsibility that hackers in other countries do not bear.

I mean, why are these questions even being asked? If it were French hackers, would people be asking if they support the National Front or why they aren’t hacking the National Front? If they were German, would people ask about how they feel about AfD? If they were Chinese, would people be asking why they aren’t doing something about the oppression of the Uyghurs? Can you honestly tell me that you would be asking those exact same questions about French/German/Chinese hackers?

Good!

Minor reporting rant. I am so tired of this lazy style of reporting:

Hayalim Almoni also shared a link to the Texas Public Sex Offender Registry, where, it said, a senior member had been registered for the sexual assault of a 14-year-old girl.

Emphasis mine. Was there no way to verify the fact?

ETA, nope, not too hard to verify!

where he is registered for having raped a 14-year-old girl.

(Lazy hack reporters!)

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I did not make any claims, I merely would like to know if they are dealing with the fascism and apartheid happening in their country. There are plenty of Israelis who support equal rights for the Palestinians and those who do not. I would like to know what side of the line this particular group is, considering they’ve positioned themselves as anti-fascists. So far, no one has replied with any information on that one way or the other, just assumptions based on the fact that they call themselves “antifa.”

So if you know the answer to my question, please post some cites to answer it.

I just want an answer to my question.

I don’t think that. If they are supportive of the Palestinians and oppose apartheid, that’s great. If they think the Palestinians deserve to live in an open air prison, I’d argue their claims to be anti-fascists deserves a bit of scrutiny.

Again, if you have some cites on their position with regards to the Palestinian situation, I’m all ears.

One thing we DO know is that they’ve named themselves after a book written by a member of the Lehi (aka the Stern Gang), so there’s that, but the term is also vague enough on it’s own merits that it might not raise eyebrows (as it just means anonymous soldier).

So… if you got info on this, I’d love to hear it. Their website expresses solidarity with all oppressed peoples and with the Black freedom struggle, but is pretty silent on the Palestinian issue.

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I am afraid that I do not have any more information than you do. (Given the non-organizational nature of Antifa and their anonymity, I am afraid that answers may not be forthcoming.) For all I know, this may be their first ever hack job. It may even turn out to be their only hack job.

You are right in saying that, if they do not support Palestinians and oppose apartheid, then they are not really anti-fascist, but I see no reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt until shown otherwise. I also would certainly prefer to see them voice support for Palestinians on their website, but not doing so does not necessarily mean that they do not support Palestinians. There are certainly people in Israel (especially younger people) who support a two-state solution.

As for what they can do about fascism in Israel, I think that we should also take into account the possibility that they would face much greater legal (perhaps even physical) risk by going after local fascists than they did by going after the universally hated Klan. Also, let’s face it: it is probably much easier to hack the Klan (who are not known for tech savviness) than it is to hack prominent Israeli politicians.

That’s fine then. Maybe someone else does.

Okay. That’s fine for you.

I didn’t say other wise, and in fact explicit said that was the case.

That’s true for BLM and other groups too. Yet, they are out on the streets of their own countries doing the work. Now they very well might be doing that at home as well, which is why I asked. I wanted to know that either way.

The KKK, though, isn’t exactly the sharp end of the spear on American fascism. They seem to be fighting the battle from the middle of the 20th century rather than the current one.

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Hacking Israeli targets might earn them rent-free accommodation for several years. Hacking an American KKK site? Naughty hackers, slap slap slap!

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Uhm, I think you should reread what I wrote (possibly including the post I was responding to for context). I specifically pointed out you and the other two posters as the ones having a worthwhile discussion, unlike the post quoted in the one I was responding to which was making unsubstantiated claims and spreading FUD.

That’s probably true. A bit of a cop-out if that’s the reasoning (kind of undermines the whole “fighting for justice outside of the system” thing) but also a completely understandable one in terms of people having actual lives and stuff.

Edit: trying to not flood the thread, so edited a couple of posts into one.

Yes, I would ask the same questions of any similar group living under a fascist regime while focusing their efforts on other fascists, as it would trigger the exact same logical incongruity. Please drop the straw man arguments. You’re actively attributing intentions to me that a) are not explicitly expressed in my writing, and b) don’t know me, so can’t have any basis for saying this beyond my writings. I can assure you, no such intentions were there, whether implicitly nor explicitly.

As for whether I would say the same of French hackers and the Front National or German hackers and the AfD? Not quite, as neither of those are (currently) in power, and there are thus better reasons to not target them, and the need to hurt them is less dire. Right-wing parties out of power love to play the underdog and present themselves as victims, and this has shown time and time again to be an effective tactic for them to gain support, so not attacking them as directly and overtly makes sense in some contexts. The same can’t be said for right-wing extremists in power. I would definitely say the same if the hackers were Hungarian, for example, or Polish.

It’s also rather interesting that you’re effectively stating that all critical discussion of any activity that doesn’t involve the people involved in the activity is “just sniping” and cannot in any way be constructive. That’s a rather bold stance, no? Isn’t reflecting upon the (possible) reasoning behind the actions of others and finding ways of improving upon this a worthwhile endeavor, potentially leading to learning something?

As for this:

Seriously, get a grip. You have zero basis for this claim, at least in my posts - I’m not speaking for anyone other than me here. You directed your reply at me, so I’m assuming you are addressing all of this to me, but please feel free to correct me if that’s wrong. But by saying this, all you’re doing is playing into the tired, old dumbing-down of any debate involving anything related to Israel. Please don’t sink to that level. My only reason for pointing out that they happen to be Israeli was to highlight the distance (cultural, geographical, political, social) between them and their chosen targets, which lies at the core of why I found their choice of target odd.

I mean, seriously, you accuse me of

That’s a pretty … uh, let’s go with peculiar reading of two posts that, while highlighting that they are indeed Israeli and their target in the US, argues around physical and cultural distance, as well as local and international politics and the most efficient use of resources. Yes, all of that ties into the countries in question, but it would be literally impossible to avoid doing so, and it would apply to anyone in a similar situation, as I said above.

If you are “not stripping nuance [but] pointing out prejudice”, as you say, then please feel free to point that out in something I actually wrote without paraphrasing it into oblivion or entirely rephrasing my arguments.

Also, criticizing them for their choice of targets is precisely criticizing them for what they did. Actions are in no way isolated from neither the actor nor who or whatever is acted upon. I mean, again, you’re effectively categorically denying the possibility of criticizing an action for being directed at the wrong target here. The target of the action is obviously just as defining of the meaning of the action as the action itself.

As for your last argument (the foreign aid one): sorry, but that’s not true. First off, the foreign aid argument is based on a logical fallacy, an assumption that (government/large organization) efforts in one place can translate 1:1 into matching efforts elsewhere (which they can’t), with the further misleading argument that “X money could be spent here on Y schools/hospitals/nurses” or similar. Of course this is in addition to them being dog whistles for xenophobic stuff of all kinds, but accusing someone of that (rather than, say, being naive or selfish) requires some level of proof. You’re making the accusation, yet have no basis for it beyond people calling them Israeli, which … they are. It’s kind of unavoidable. Or should we just call them “non-US”?

Secondly, it’s not actually the same argument at all, as the foreign aid argument focuses on a transfer of resources from relative wealth to somewhere with a lack thereof (hence the concept of aid), even if a core part of it is presenting the relatively wealthy place/group as not really all that wealthy (one of the many ways this classic argument is fundamentally built on twisting reality). Of course “wealth” can come in many forms (in this case: hackers), but you’re making a false equivalency here: that classic dogwhistle argument would be the same only if the aid in question was going from a poor country to a wealthy one. I would agree entirely that this was the same if, say, someone in Yemen was sending emergency food supplies to … I don’t know, Ireland? But the other way? No. My argument was precisely the opposite of what you are saying. You can’t simply pick away the premises of an argument and say that you’re “not removing nuance, but pointing out prejudice” when the parts you remove fundamentally reverse the logic of what is being argued.

Wow, there really ought to be some kind of straw man argument trigger warning here. It wasn’t pointed out “just because of the country in which they were born”. It was pointed out because of the glaring logical incongruity of the actions taken and the context in which they were taken. While both hacking and fascism are indeed global phenomena and enabled by the global(ish) internet, political power still scales with physical/geographical proximity. The closer you are to something, the more likely you are to know it or be able to know it, the more likely you are able to find effective ways of acting in support of or against it. This applies to literally any situation - fixing it locally is always more efficient than fixing it remotely as long as local resources actually exist. The reason for foreign aid existing is because those resources don’t exist in the places targeted. Yet here we have a situation where the resources exist, are needed, yet are used elsewhere. Doesn’t Occam’s razor alone then tell us that the most reasonable explanation for pointing out the incongruity of this is that it is incongruous rather than prejudice?

I just wanted to point out that I have made no assumptions, but asked for more information.

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Let’s all take a breath here, please. If someone is reading more into comments than intended by the writer, then point that out, but understand that in text misinterpretations and misunderstandings happen. There’s no need to get personal.

Reciprocally, readers should not assume there is one and only one interpretation for a complex statement or position, either. And middle-eastern politics and/or white-hat hacking definitely fall into the “complex position” category.

Thanks.

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If I may, I think that we should view this hack as what it was: a prank. There has been much talk about the effective use of hacking resources or their policy stances and whatnot, but for all we know, this could be a single teenager who did this. The expectations being made of them (fighting for freedom and justice everywhere or toppling the Netanyahu regime, etc.) is not proportional to what they have actually done so far. Can’t we just enjoy their prank for what it is without bringing larger, unrelated geopolitics into this?

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