Are we really so interested in Renée Zellweger's "new face"?

Of course not, a subculture is still a reaction to a larger whole, so it is fairly impotent from the outset. Kind of like the idea of “alternative” music. Alternative to what? To a dominant mainstream, of course. As a reaction to oppression, it is formulated with this oppression as an implicit assumption.

Doing away with “mainstream” involves creating parallel cultures, which is a significant difference. Which involves creating groups and participation from first principles instead of reacting to what others do or expect of you. For this to be effective, you can’t rely upon the infrastructure provided by others. It involves knowing that whatever apparent mainstream - aka coercive cultures outside - are just that: other, outside. They are not “elites” and not parental authorities to be rebelled against. Not dropping out of The System, but devising your own, equally-valid systems. This involves an art which has largely disappeared over the past century - that of seeing “society(-ies)” as inherently plural.

Consuming as a problem implies a false dichotomy. There cannot be a wholly consumption-oriented society, because it implies that there are hidden producers. It might be more productive to deconstruct the entire concept of transaction itself. Of course different currencies and transactional criteria can be used. Of course money can be used without the philosophy of capitalism. Of course transactions can occur between equals instead of some hierarchal mass-production social structure. How is that transaction would be essentially exploitive? It is an assumption of some societies, the industrial age McGuffin of a captive audience, Consumer as renewable resource to fuel a financial machine. That this has happened might be a fact, but it is a recent example, and not the only one we have to draw from.

The best artists could be said to be dedicated Producers, who produce what they deem as necessary, without concern for who the consumers may be, or how many.

How is it hard to deny? You state it as a fact in monolithic, absolutist terms. But it depends wholly upon the goals of the individual. It’s merely an empty medium. There is the danger of circular logic, assuming that movies as commerce are more successful because those are the kind you choose to recognize. This makes it successful by fiat, because you simply dismiss everything else.

Film was somewhat more expensive than other media, such as paint or print. But the industry created around it inflated this expense with a byzantine guild system designed to generate employment and larger projects. This industry was born of the commercial interests rather than necessities of film itself as a medium. I should trust Hollywood, right, since they know so much about making movies - and they are of such exceptional quality… Well, the Hollywood philosophy has been that it takes many millions of dollars and hundreds of people. Because this is what they deem as desirable for their own invested minority. But the reality is that making a solid movie can be done with ten people and ten thousand dollars. Especially since film has practically disappeared, and been replaced with cheap cameras, free software, along with essentially unlimited storage and distribution.

My problem is not with commerce itself, but rather people using finance to entrench their values into a neutral medium for their own shallow, near-sighted, narcissistic reasons. Hollywood have engineered their own viewers for their own kind of product. And even when the viewers complain en masse about the imaginative bankruptcy of this milieu, they still begrudgingly patronize it, buying into the superstition that This Is How Good Movies Must Be Made. There was almost a reason for it 80 years ago, but I don’t think we can honestly say this today. Musicians have adapted and taken a lot of control back from the moribund “music industry”, and I would love to see something similar happen with the “movie industry”.

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The medium is the message.

I’m not sure that the media of the machine can be effectively employed for resistance.

And, how, exactly, do you forge parallels when all aspects of life are colonized? Just because there was diversity in the past, doesn’t mean we can just enact that.

Right.

Commerce (of the modern variety) is what created the narcissistic system. But there has been valued created within the system. it’s not mutually exclusive. People can’t create art in a capitalist society without some sort of financial support. You got to eat, you got to pay rent. Again, it’s not a value judgement, it’s how people are able to make a living…

Besides, there is this: The medium is the message - Wikipedia

[quote=“Mindysan33, post:42, topic:43655”]
The medium is the message.[/quote]

I know, I have read some McLuhan. In the article you linked, it sounds like he shared my outlook on film:

[quote]McLuhan proposes that a medium itself, not the content it carries, should be the focus of study.
Taking the movie as an example, he argued that the way this medium played with conceptions of speed and time transformed “the world of sequence and connections into the world of creative configuration and structure.” Therefore the message of the movie medium is this transition from “lineal connections” to “configurations”.[/quote]

So, what makes film interesting is not the industry of producing and distributing it, but rather the artifacts and workflow of film itself. The transformation of an X/Y continuum of static film imagery to sequenced structures over time. Along with the discontinuities of being essentially a high-speed flip book.

Why not enact it? Colonize your own life, your own time, your own community. Are territorial claims necessarily permanent? What have you got to lose, other than your agency as a person? As regards diversity in the past, McLuhan said that in a society based upon access to recorded information - all times and places co-exist simultaneously. The linear nature of temporality explodes into a proliferation of sequences and loops. And besides, since modern culture pays so much lip service to (at least, the superficial appearance of) diversity, this is a perfect excuse for demanding and celebrating actual diversity.

[quote=“Mindysan33, post:42, topic:43655”]

Right.[/quote]

Well, this was a large part of the point I was trying to make. The movie industry is not really about movies. Even most people who chase money are not very interested in what money is or how it works either. The commodification of desire is a constantly changing shell game.

You and I get to determine what modern commerce consists of, as much as anybody else does. What most people seem to think is modern strikes me as horribly primitive attempts to live out their fantasies of instinctively-driven competition for resources and social status games. It’s even less modern now than it was thousands of years ago. Using modern technology for such base motivations doesn’t change this in any significant way.

Good! Why the hell would I ever choose to create art in a capitalist society? It runs entirely contrary to my goals. It’s not like food or shelter grow on trees, after all, is it? It is only a sound way to “make a living” if it satisfies some of my goals without selling myself into slavery in the bargain. And this in no way means that it is the only way to live. Establishing your own societies with likeminded people right in the belly of the beast is fun, and empowering. If people are too timid to risk it, their options are exploitation or death. It is possible to transact with people as an equal, without any exploitation. but some people will make this extremely difficult to accomplish. The next few years are going to be very interesting!

Except it’s a commercial medium.

It’s small acts of rebellion, that’s all it is. We can change and direct our own lives, and I’m not claiming otherwise. However, if the entire system doens’t chnange, what’s the point, other than making our individual lives better and more fullfulling. Systemic change is needed.

Some people get a greater say in that than we do. We need to acknowledge that for whatever power we have, we are inside a totalizing system where power is inherently unevenly distributed. Our ability to deviate from the norm is directly tied to our social position within the structures we live in. Dropping out is a hell of a lot easier if you’re a rich white man, then if you are a black working class woman. Until we deal with those specificities that takes power from some at the expense of others, we really can’t recreate the new society we’d like to see. It demands collective action because it is systemic.

And, again, not everyone has the same ability to do that. It’s easier to for some than others. and at no point is anyone complete outside the system.

I think we might be running into the problem of not agreeing on what the fundamental problems with society are… :wink:

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Well sure, it can be.

I just find that sometimes I ask why only to avoid dealing with something. As if understanding will inevitably lead to action, it doesn’t. At least not for me.

People invariably make what they believe to be the best choice possible, asking why then means asking about the assumptions people make when making a choice.

In this case, if Renee Zellweger were to come out and say that she got plastic surgery because Hollywood is so fickle that she felt there was no other way for her to keep getting hired, it would be to denounce Hollywood sexism, and to admit she’s given in to it. It would mean to both blame the game and keep participating in it.

She can’t do that.

Hollywood makes unreasonable demands of Renee Zellweger, she gives in to these demands and gets “called out on it” by the media arm of Hollywood. In return, she gets to make at least one more movie, and we get to ask “why” she got the surgery when, she clearly didn’t “need it”, not to be beautiful anyway. And in asking why, we get to distance ourselves from the demand Hollywood makes, while continuing to validate it because we’re talking about it.

Except they must eat, and patronage makes demands. The theme for the Sistine chapel theme was not chosen by Michaelangelo.
I’d agree with you if we lived in any other society than the one we do. (I mean the global one)

I wish this were true. Sure, the barrier to entry has dropped, but for the big guys as well as the little guys. After all, its allowed for both Jonathan Coulton and Justin Bieber.

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Why do you assume that I live in the same society as you do? Or that either of us live in the same society as Michelangelo? Is there any reason to assume that simply because we are (presumably) on the same planet, that we are affiliated with the same social structures? Also, in choosing Michelangelo as an example, you specifically choose to recognize a person who agreed to work within that system. Most other painters did not. So the implicit judgement could be seen as that these compromises are what made him a great artist to be remembered.

[quote=“tachin1, post:46, topic:43655”]I wish this were true. Sure, the barrier to entry has dropped, but for the big guys as well as the little guys. After all, its allowed for both Jonathan Coulton and Justin Bieber.
[/quote]

Wish in one hand, and spit in the other, as they say. It is as “true” as you make it. How are there “big guys” and/or “little guys”? Why do you assume that pimping and publicity makes anybody a better or more significant artist or performer? Has it occurred to you that not all people share this assumption? Why should either of us front for some broadcast media circus which isn’t paying us anything? Believe it or not, there is no objective reason why it matters how many people listen to one musician versus another. Commerce is a game, and games are defined by their goals and rules. You cannot reasonably expect that all people share the same goals, or that there aren’t other games apart from and outside of yours.

I seem to recall a similar general shock when Mickey Rourke reappeared back in the spotlight for The Wrestler. People want to make it a gender issue but it’s more how shockingly different she is; not just the usual nip and tuck but like she entered a witness protection program.

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Didn’t say anybody else shares either my assumptions or point of view. But who else is going to say what I believe in other than I?

No need to assume anything, Michaelangleo did not live in the same society I do, yet he still artistically relevant. When I mention the global society, I’m talking about art made for consumption. If you make art for art’s sake, keep it to yourself, don’t hold any expectations that it will mean anything to anyone who is able to experience it and wouldn’t take money for it if it was offered, then your point of view is unassailable.

I would love to hear about it though, to understand what you are talking about.

If you are talking about other people making art in the real world, well, we try and are bounded by reality at all sides. Getting food on the table is my first boundary. Making sure there’s going to be a roof over my family’s head is another. But boundaries are not limitations, not even in commercial art.

Many artists lose the very thing that made them interesting once they are successful, probably because the thing that connected me to their art, the trials of living, are simply not part of their experience anymore. If the hunger to succeed is what fuels your art, then succeeding can be fatal to it as well. Sure, you can be an ascetic and make art that is meaningful to other ascetics or people who aspire to that life, but to assume that great art is objective in and of itself and free from intent and interpretation is to miss the point of art itself.

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I think in part because we are all communicating on this particular medium? If you aren’t in this society, communicating on this particular forum, then where are you? Or at the very least, how is the society you live in not dictated by the logic of the current capitalist system, which demands trading dollars for hours? Is your labor not a commodity for sale in the marketplace of artists? If not, how do you go about supporting yourself? Does the state support you? Your local community? A patron? You keep speaking in broad generalities about this, and give us literally no clue as to what you mean by the alternatives other than to say you are involved in an alternative. Yet, here you are, communicating on a space created by the military industrial academic conflict in the heart of the cold war, which has become a key driver of the neoliberal eocnomy. Explain how you are therefore outside the system when you are right here and now participating in the system?

Meaning who exactly? Those who did not participate in the renaissance patronage system? How else did painters of that time period make a living?

Only very few people consider their ability to make a living at the thing they love to do a game. You mentioned the alternatives to the label system in regards to music, but ignore that artists who are looking for alternatives are still looking to sell a product in a marketplace. That’s still inside the system.

What makes the current system economic system so strong is the fact that there is such flexibility within that system. Various forms of resistance have often just been accommodated within the logic of consumer capitalism. Films can be both an art form and a mass produced product precisely because of that reason.

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Yeah, I thought it was more about the fact that I did not recognize her at all. There was an article about it that had a picture of her and I honestly thought they had put up the wrong picture. She’s just got a totally new face. That’s a weird thing to do.

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Yes - someone on another blog I was clicking through as I was reading this thread mentioned that she seemed to be wearing very different makeup than her old style, and that she thought this was part of what was making her seem so different. I think she looked very tan and in the old days she was the kind of girl who didn’t seem capable of tanning, so I thought perhaps the makeup angle was a good one.

Anyway, I am tots in agreement that women and men in Hollywood face unbelieveable pressure not to appear to age and many of them seem strange looking to me in their quest for youth. For example, Billy Crystal of late comes to mind as someone who no longer looks quite human.

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I’d say that, while we may not be able to productively address the why issue on an individual level (which I think is what you are saying is the heart of that), we can try to get at a why of the social level, because we can more effectively chart discussions between groups of people during different points in history to see what’s motivating their views or actions - at least in terms of what they say they are doing/thinking. We can understand the why of the labor movement at one point or another by examining their public discussions and their private discussions (when such archives exist) to better understand what it is they are reacting to and trying to change.

In this case, if Zellweger got plastic surgery, we might not know her own personal reasons for doing so (or not, if she didn’t), but we can try and understand the discussion about her (real or perceived) procedures, as well as the broader picture of the realities of being a woman in hollywood and what that means for how we view women in our culture. I think that speaks to the why question as much as to the what? It’s large scale structures to be sure, and I think our answer will never be entirely complete. But it might help us to better understand they why…

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