A perfectly valid answer, thank you.
This just shows that an extreme amount of testosterone, out of balance, can cause problems. It’s also anecdotal. I know several people who get put to sleep by caffeine. Is it fair for me to say that caffeine causes drowsiness?
Come back when you have evidence suggesting that testosterone has a statistically stronger effect on male libido than estrogen does in female libido.
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I think your stats show exactly that it is a matter of expression. If 19% of visitors from Japan are women and 46% of visitors from Jamaica are women then this is clearly a cultural issue, not a biological one. Are you suggesting that the average of 26% is the biological number and that while Japan discourages women’s porn use to the tune of 7%, the Philippines culture pressures women into viewing porn to the tune of 9%? That would seem like a very strange position (unless there are things about the Philippines I don’t know, but then you’d have to argue that for all the other above-average countries).
Some men really do experience a persistent, hard to deal with sexual impulse. I personally know some women who do too. I am male genetically and thought that was actually just a dumb caricature until I talked to a friend who told me that was his actual experience. If there is some real difference it’s not going to knock me on my ass with surprise - hormones affect our moods and drives. But if you pick a random man and a random woman from the population and check who is taller, it’s only about 80% the man is (maybe 90%, I find different data and it varies based on the population, obviously). Differences in the average don’t show up nearly as regularly in individuals as we intuitively believe.
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That’s not the flip side, that’s a very specific and unique case. And one in which she has no frame of reference for what she thinks she wants.
Also, she claims that her cerebral palsy was due to the umbilical cord being wrapped around her neck so that she was “strangled” during the birth process. That’s a common misperception, but coming from someone who should understand their own lifetime medical condition it seems particularly ignorant. You can’t strangle someone who has never (yet) used their lungs to breathe. An actual tightened knot in the umbilical cord…that’s what would cut off oxygen to a fetus. Furthermore, the claim that the umbilical cord was wrapped around a baby and that’s why it’s born with CP is known to have been a common excuse used by doctors who made mistakes during the delivery process which caused oxygen deprivation. An adult with CP should know this, and not accept the standard old excuse blindly.
In short, not a credible thinker; therefore, not a credible counter-argument.
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Let’s recap:
- Responding calmly and clearly in a discussion is being “upset”;
- Insisting on the repeatedly disbunked baseline that the only option is for men to be without a libido;
- Ignoring the repeatedly explained fact that objectification – yes, even of women by men – is not ever solely about sex, and often isn’t about sex at all.
So glad this spin-off conversation is bringing new insights to the fore. /s
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Is this the number one thread on the BBS right now for mansplaining? Seems like it. Even some of the men are being mansplained!
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Funny, isn’t it? The thread with all the beefcake is the one that isn’t rapey.
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Lets get back on topic here, attraction vs. objectification.
When I was young I could not go out without adult men going out of the way to talk to me. I don’t mean catcalls, I mean grown ass men stopping on the side walk, grabbing my arm, looking in my eyes to say something like “you’re beautiful” - I had men take my photo, some ask, most didn’t. One man RAN after me on the subway to stop me to tell me that while he knew he had no chance with a “girl like you” he just had to tell me how “beautiful” I was and that he was glad I existed in the world. He walked away smiling, probably pleased with himself. I walked away red faced and embarrassed and more than a little scared. The older I got the more my RBF developed and I “aged” out of this kind of attention.
If I could live in a world where that didn’t happen? Yes please! Sign me the fuck up!
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I don’t know this woman, but to me this paper isn’t about the male gaze, it’s about the way that people with disabilities are seen. I can understand wanting to experience things that are considered to be “normal”, but making it about one part that she admits she really hasn’t experienced fully is an odd and obviously political angle.
I think work should be done around the way people with disabilities are understood, especially sexually. Right now they are fetishized or desexualized because it’s easier and more comfortable for the rest of us. But that doesn’t really have anything to do with the male gaze.
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It’s interesting. While I’ve never done any of what’s described here, I had never thought that a sincere expression of appreciation for someone’s beauty could be a bad thing until I had a partner explain how it made her feel when she was stopped like that.
IMHO, I think because 1) many men mean it as a compliment and 2) many men aren’t subjected to that sort of attention regularly, it doesn’t even enter their minds to consider that it could be a bad thing. While, as I mentioned, I had not done anything of the sort before, after having this explained to me I vowed to never make statements like that to a stranger precisely to avoid triggering those sorts of feelings in someone else.
Once in my entire life I had a woman on the subway, just before getting off at her stop, come over to me and tell me “I just wanted to say I think you are beautiful” and kiss me on the cheek, then walk off the subway. I was reading a book at the time and it came completely out of the blue. It was a very positive (and nearly unbelievable!) experience for me, but I know that’s in large part because it is exceedingly rare for most men to experience that sort of attention compared to women (and, for example, most men have never had someone dismiss them just because they where an objectified of attraction, something I’ve personally seen happen to women before).
I’m going to change the question from the OP a bit, directed at those who have been on the receiving end of the sort of objectification mentioned here (i.e., mostly women): If everyone ceased commenting to strangers about their beauty, and never spoke to acquaintances or better in a way that exclusively objectified them, 1) would that “solve” the issue, and 2) would there be anything positive lost in this hypothesis?
If the answer to 2 is yes, what would your preferred alternative be?
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Having watched my spouses reaction to porn and knowing my own. No. Not the same reaction.
Edit: yes it’s anectodotal. 
Considering that most porn caters to a hetero male gaze (and a particularly well trained one at that), I’m not surprised.
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I frequent my local Starbucks often wit my 9 yr old. The young women who all work there think he is adorable. They casually strike up conversation with him and act flirtatious (you know the manner I mean I trust) and I being dad tease him and say “I think she likes you.” And he does the growling “daaaaad” reply and I get that look fro the barista and smile and of saying “kid embarrassed. Mission accomplished”.
It ends there. There have been some small talk convos “hey does your son play soccer? We’ve seen you at the field right?” And normal things like that.
However. I’ve sat at the counter and watched other men pry and ask “what’s your name? Oh that’s an unusual name. Tell me where that comes from?” And similarly icky lines of conversation. I want to look at these guys and say “hey. Jackass. She’s working here. She doesn’t have time for your pathetic and creepy attempts at flirtatious small talk. It’s gross. And unwelcome. Knock it off”.
(Probably should have been a point here or some value add. Which I don’t think there is either)
Here’s a very simple answer:
To be treated like a fucking human being, not an object that only exists to please someone else.
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We’ve discussed all kinds. She is revulsed by it.
You’re point is definitely spot on for the majority though. Agreed.
But but, how can you expect men to do that and have a libido at the same time?!
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- yes?
- no.
LOL
done!
There was a period in my life when anyone, didn’t matter who, if they told me I was beautiful would get yelled at. Because what does that mean? What does it mean when someone says you’re beautiful? Is it the face? Is it the hair? Is it the clothes? Body? Laugh? What? Its not a compliment, its a currency. I’m supposed to take it, and in exchange give you my attention. I hated this exchange, I hated the men who felt that their compliments earned my time, and I hated that I was supposed to be gracious and accept these compliments with a smile. As if it were brand new every damn time. (also, like, I have eyes, I have a mirror, I know what i look like dammit, I dressed myself this morning!) I was a very angry girl for a while.
My rule of thumb about compliments, don’t compliment “beauty”, what is that even, thats just weird unless it’s your romantic partner, and don’t compliment body parts, also creepy and weird. And no “I” statements. “I like your hair” - ok now I just think you’re a serial killer who wants to scalp me. And yes, it is a minefield I know, so the question to me always is this:
Why do you want to compliment strangers in the first place?
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I think you’re underestimating the danger factor. Imagine what it would be like if a man walked up to a woman he didn’t know in a public place and kissed her on the cheek. She would be awash in fear, first and foremost.
I’m reminded of the time I was going out to a Chicago Gay Men’s Choir concert with a bunch of friends (all gay men) so I wore a nice red dress, secure in the knowledge that I would be safe. Forgot that I had to actually GET THERE first. Walking down the sidewalk, a car filled with men STOPPED TRAFFIC in the middle of the block to catcall and beg me to join them. One of them could have jumped out and grabbed me, and that would have been that. And it would have been my fault, for wearing a silk dress that looked nice on me.
You think compliments are compliments. You don’t realize that they can be the first stage in a dangerous situation.
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I’m an idiot. If I can do it. Any one can.
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Men watch porn.
Women read.
I honestly think its that simple.
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