Backing Trump into a corner, the Special Master believes documents marked classified by the government probably are

[MagicFox]

I think it might be this one:

JW-v-Natl-Archives-presidential-records-opinion-01834.pdf

But that would be a tortured reading of the decision.

In brief, Judicial Watch wanted access to some tapes a historian made while interviewing Clinton, which recorded some conversations Clinton had in his official capacity. They asked the court to order the National Archives to declare the tapes presidential records and recover them. The judge ruled against Judicial Watch because a) the Archive didn’t have the statutory authority to determine what are presidential records or not, and b) the court can only compel an agency to do something they are legally required to do.

If this is indeed the case, the advice he probably gave was: you don’t have to give them anything because Clinton didn’t have to turn over his tapes! However, the classified documents came from other agencies, so even if trump determined they were not presidential records, they are still records of those specific agencies and must be returned.

Pro tip: only take legal advice from actual lawyers, not unlicensed political agitators.

[Brainspore]

@RickMycroft

Imagine the hash it would create for everyone else if declassifications weren’t noted and the central registry updated?

Just a couple hours ago Trump claimed that he could declassify things “just by thinking about it.” Dude thinks he’s Charles Xavier or something.

[RickMycroft]

Plus he can reach back in time to do it when he was still president. Pardons too!

[Brainspore]

11th Circuit seems thoroughly unimpressed with Judge Cannon’s ruling and has now stayed her order restricting the government’s use of the seized materials in their criminal investigations. Special Master Dearie seems to be siding with the government’s position on these documents, but even if he wasn’t it looks like he’s just been rendered a lot less relevant anyway.

U.S. appeals court says Trump criminal probe can resume classified records...

Note that two of the three judges behind this order were Trump appointees and they still weren’t going for it.

[jerwin]

From way back in October 2020

Trump's tweet on 'total' declassification of Russia docs isn't an order,...

[RickMycroft]

@Brainspore

11th Circuit seems thoroughly unimpressed with Judge Cannon

While she’s apparently a member of the Federalist Society, it’s probably at the outer “dinner and debate club” layer. I doubt that she was on their positioning or fast track lists.

Odds are that they didn’t recommend her at all, but Trump wanted to place his own Renfield within reach of MaL.

[gatto]

@anon85524460

Historically a President can just declassify things at will and it is, so if he says he did, there’s no way to prove he didn’t and there’s no way to prove he’s lying.

others have pretty much said everything, but maybe linguistics are telling. my understanding is: a president can declassify things but they can’t make things declassified.

the actual declassification is a process. not merely a label

it’s like ■■■■■ can have mc donald’s anytime he wants ( until he’s in prison ) but he can’t literally have any without someone buying it for him. and he can’t point to a horse ( or whatever they use ) and say: it’s a hamburger. there are steps in between

[subextraordinaire]

@anon85524460

Historically a President can just declassify things at will and it is, so if he says he did, there’s no way to prove he didn’t and there’s no way to prove he’s lying.

Nope. There’s actual paperwork involved when declassifying most government files. There’s no magic incantation.

@kschang777

That may apply to even Top Secret, Secret, and Confidential Documents, but it doesn’t apply to SCI classified stuff. SCI info must be stored at SCIF (special facility) and Mar-whatever ain’t it. That’s a violation in itself.

[Brainspore]

@subextraordinaire

There’s actual paperwork involved when declassifying most government files. There’s no magic incantation.

See also (since we’re doing The Office now):

[smulder]

@MagicFox

only take legal advice from actual lawyers

[smulder]

@gatto

can’t point to a horse ( or whatever they use )

Do I want to know what “they” use horses for

[kschang777]

Thank you. It’s clear that Fitton only read what he cared for out of it, ignoring the rest of the decision.

TL:DR: Judicial Watch (JW) heard about the “Clinton tapes”, tried to use FOIA on the Clinton library to get it.

JW: We want the Clinton tapes, and here’s a FOIA request for it!

Clinton Library: We can’t give it to you because we don’t have it.

JW: What you mean? It’s Presidential record, is it not?

CL: No it isn’t. It’s personal record of Clinton.

JW: Does NARA have it?

CL: Ask them.

NARA: No we don’t.

JW: I’ll sue you! Get it from him at once!

Court: What’s this about you suing NARA for some records it doesn’t have?

JW: (mumble, mumble)

Court: You’re not being reasonable here. NARA can’t produce something they don’t have, just because you THINK they ought to have it. Case dismissed.

JW: So Clinton gets to keep his personal stuff away from us! It must have juicy details!

—YEARS LATER—

JW: Yo Trump! Don’t give anything to NARA! Just say it’s personal! NARA can’t do anything to you!

Trump: Sounds great! Why don’t my lawyers know about this?

Trump Lawyers: Uh… that’s not what the decision really says…

Trump: Well, those are MY personal records! They are MINE! I say so! What did I hire you for?

Trump Lawyers: But you never…

Trump: Out! Go make it happen!

–DOOR SLAMS–

[jimr1603]

Different jurisdiction, but we have an example from England & Wales. When May was in charge of the Home Office the HO passed legislation that changed the definition of rape, by removing the old crimes from the statute books and replacing it with the new ones.

Without looking it up, you could be charged with old-rape up to 11:59 one day, then new-rape from 00:00 the next day.

The Lords, our upper chamber, pointed out that it needed a bridging clause to deal with ambiguity across the temporal borderline, and the HO promised to patch it. Spoiler: they didn’t.

At least one person had a successful defence where they built reasonable doubt that the crime happened before midnight, and built reasonable doubt that it happened after midnight. With reasonable doubt for both crimes the jury found them not-guilty on both counts.

[Ryuthrowsstuff]

@AnthonyC

The prosecution proved the defendent committed exactly one of two crimes, but can’t differentiate between them,” what actually happens?

Then they get convicted of both.

I’m not a lawyer but it’s insanely common for multiple charges to be levied over the same criminal actions. And there’s nothing saying actions can’t violate multiple laws.

We do this every day, and it’s even common to offer lesser charges as an option for juries for when prosecutors prove the case, but not quite in the way that ticks that particular box.

You’d be hard pressed to find a pair of crimes that overlap enough to be proven with the same evidence, but are some how mutually exclusive.

“But I didn’t desecrate a corpse, I just murdered a guy” wouldn’t really be grounds for an appeal.

[MagicFox]

LOL! Touché!

[MagicFox]

Nice! A much better summary than mine. It’s almost like you were there.

[Richard_Kirk]

@RickMycroft

@petzl

the one he gets nailed for is… impulsively grabbing a bunch of shiny documents at the last minute on the way out.

I don’t think it was impulsive. As I understand, he had to specifically request paper copies of those documents, and because he has no clue, he would have had people telling him which documents to request.

And while his first reaction would be “Mine! Mine! Mine!”, the slow ramping up of the seriousness of the requests for the documents back, and that he could have quietly given them back without losing any public face…

No, he wanted those documents for reasons, transactional ones.

It is hard to know what that creature thinks. I would try to get into his head but it’s so tiny. However, whatever he does, his first impulse is probably not far away.

So, why did super-spy Agent Orange have the paper documents at all? If he sold the contents, scans or photos of it would be so much better and safer. He could really get into the role, wear a dinner jacket and bow tie, and take photos with a Minox camera like the one I wanted as a kid, while humming the James Bond theme. If someone insisted on the original documents, this suggests that they wanted the option to shaft him with the evidence later. Or, and much more likely, Agent Orange does not know how to work a scanner.

This is all so mad, his defence could have argued “Look, it makes no sense for him to keep the original documents. The only reasonable explanation is they must had been planted.” But they didn’t, because Agent Orange promptly provided more samples of his epic stupid.

[armozel]

@RickMycroft

I don’t think it was impulsive. As I understand, he had to specifically request paper copies of those documents, and because he has no clue, he would have had people telling him which documents to request.

I have to agree since my foray into reading many declassified documents (old radio spec and military docs) tend to be awful when titling them as to give you a proper idea what they’re about. I assume this a government-wide kind of pattern?

[grima]

They are starting to learn.

Trump’s newest lawyer demanded $3 million payment up front

[Stripes]

@Mindysan33

I don’t know why people keep giving him the benefit of the doubt that he’s just a stupid fuck up who could not possible pull off taking documents that anyone with two brain cells to rub together would realize could have value.

I think at the end of the day I’m not fixated on the “he wants to LARP still being president” because I think selling state secrets is to complicated for him. I think it is one part “he is enough of a dope that if he attempted to sell them chances are he would actually sell them to an undercover FBI agent or something”, and six parts “I think the biggest loser move is to commit a major felony just so he can play make-believe, and even lamer he would already be pretending a disused maralargo shed is the Oval Office, so he may as well pretend a bunch of random documents are the real deal and have never stolen anything int he first place”.

So really, I have to admit I’m mostly doing it because I’m imagining him to be the most pathetic loser, not the most corrupt loser.

I could very obviously be wrong about which type of loser he is.