I don’t think I can answer that fully tonight, I need some sleep to be more coherent. 
But if Bernie can convince her to adopt and actually work toward some of his ideas, to bring the platform even a little more leftward, it might give Bernie supporters more of a reason to vote for her. (I will try to have a better answer tomorrow.)
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How about, “You need to bend over backwards to attract my supporters, but and I will do nothing to encourage them to consider you until you do.”
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One good thing about Trump - he’s doing more to shift the Overton window to the economic left than anyone in a generation, even Bernie - because he has the idiot ear of the authoritarians.
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Bernie is never going to “endorse” Clinton in the way that you want, for the simple reason that he’s honest.
What he will do, and has been doing, is to say that Clinton is a corrupt warmongering corporatist, but that he believes that his supporters should vote for her despite that, because Trump is even worse.
Why? Because it’s true.
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Unless you’re going to war with them* it is to your advantage to have neighbors who are in good shape socially and economically.
Jared Diamond wrote a very good book on this subject. “Collapse”.
*even then the object of war shouldn’t be to create permanent instability.
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Well, there is an urgent lesson to not join, and then leave, the European common market.
But the big issue with Bernie’s statement is that it is all just an attack on the Democratic party. The word “Republican” is never mentioned. Republicans have controlled the House every year since 1994 but 4. Just 2 of those years had a democratic president. But his entire tone is that all the woe of America is on the shoulders of the Democrats. Maybe give the Democratic party 4 full years - when the world isn’t exploding in the greatest recession since 1930 - to get some things done. And then zero acknowledgment of what was done - more taxes on the rich, more healthcare and assistance with the cost of healthcare, more financial institution regulation, more help for the environment - and all the Democrats and Hillary are already talking (and have been for a long time) how they’d like to expand all this further. But he acts like the current platform is “expand coal, cut taxes for the rich, and slash social services.” Save some of the attack for the Republicans, Bernie.
It’s the Sanderist “Legion of The Forlorned Hope”.
They would never get there happiness.
-If he did get the nomination (by majority of votes):
He would have been attacked by Ginger Drumpf as weak on foreign policy (after Orlando, Istanbul).
-If he did get the nomination (by Superdelagates):
He would have been attacked by Ginger Drumpf as stealing the nomination vs. Ginger Drumpf’s more Republican primary votes ever
-If he won the Presidency he would have to get some “insiders” to run an effective cabinet. They would then cry havoc that he sold them out.
-As President he would be forced to compromise, especially considering the Republican position in House/Senate. They would then cry havoc that he sold them out.
-This Idea that they would protest in the street. How’s that supposed to work. Historically unreliable concept, considering it would be mostly young whites for a few years, who would be branded as modern hippies by many and attacked as such.
Besides, Hillary spent years/decades building a report with minorities, using the strategy that Obama ran with, the Democratic party today. Sanders ran a campaign along the lines of Bill Clinton, and that was the Democratic party in the early 1990’s. His reach out to minorities was apparent deemed by many as trying to be another “Great White Hope.”
Also, Somalian pirates…
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The argument we were having was whether trade had benefited less wealthy nations. It began from the point of saying that it had largely hurt the more wealthy nations, so I was focusing on the less wealthy partners. I think you’ll find the same arguments back and forth on whether NAFTA helped America or not. I don’t think it’s really all that contentious, though, to say that it did not help America’s working class.
I just don’t buy the view that trade is responsible for economic growth and lifting people out of poverty. I can think of alternate theories that seems just as good or better and I can think of no way of using evidence to tell which one better conforms with reality.
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Yeah, I would never ever argue that the wealthy few benefited the most from NAFTA and that working class blue collar families were dealt a blow that was nearly a coup de grace after the 80s and early 90s.
I’m not going to continue arguing about the impact to Mexico or the rest of the world, but it was never about NAFTA being a universal good and @enso has butted in a couple of times characterizing it as such.
Bernie thought superdelegates should vote for the winner of the popular vote until it was clear he lost the popular vote. Then he thought superdelegates should vote for him and overturn the popular vote.
That’s not honest.
If Bernie wants to play the game and have influence, then he has to face reality. If he doesn’t, he’ll end up just another loudmouth that no one attends to.
BTW, Bernie is a gun nut. He voted against the Brady Bill. He’s not without major flaws.
First of all, Clinton has done a LOT to attract Sanders supporter, adopting his positions on a number of issues and giving him significant influence on the platform committee. Likely, primary process reforms will happen too, though the one that needs to happen most (no more caucuses) is the one Sanders benefited from most.
Second, Sanders’ influence lies in his voters. But In the most recent poll from ABC News and the Washington Post, Clinton leads Trump 51 percent to 39 percent, expanding her previous lead by 5 points, as Trump has seen a complete collapse in his support. And what’s driving the move toward Clinton? Democrats and independents who supported Bernie Sanders. In May, 20 percent of Sanders supporters said they would back Trump over Clinton in the general election. In June, that number is down to 8 percent. Overall, 81 percent of Sanders backers have rallied to Clinton, surpassing the 74 percent of Clinton supporters in 2008 who fell in behind Barack Obama.
And that means he is rapidly losing the power to influence the party, and becoming simply an irritating curmudgeon throwing a temper tantrum.
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Oh, I’m sorry, did I get added to your private email exchange? I’ll let you two converse in private while we all watch…
If you didn’t like this reply or don’t like my comments, feel free not to invoke me by name for a remark and I probably won’t reply. There are no gurantees. That’s the way public discourse works: it is public. If you want private, take it to private messages. Otherwise, the peanut gallery may weigh in.
Yes, right after I make sure my actual neighbors here in America are in good shape socially and economically. They’re not.
As one of “the diabetics”, thankfully an employed one, I had insurance before. For me personally, the ACA didn’t make things either better or worse.
Prescription drug prices have continued rising, and insurance companies still do their best to deny coverage to more expensive but more effective medicines. About 7 months ago my doctor made 3 attempts to change my meds. The insurance company rejected all of them. They rejected the appeal, after several weeks, on the grounds that some blood test result wasn’t up to standard (when it actually was just fine). As a result, I was put on a completely different class of drug than what the doctor had originally wanted to try me on. It proved to be completely ineffective.
A month ago she tried again, it was rejected again, but the appeal went through. And it’s been working great; my doctor was right 7 months ago, but for the sake of insurance company profit margin my blood glucose has been unnecessarily high for the past 6 months.
The process of prior authorizations, appeals, rejections, etc. costs the US $30 billion a year, in order to save insurance companies a couple million here and there.
I personally spend about $13,000 a year on health care, and that’s WITH insurance.
The ACA is better than nothing and has helped a lot of people, yes. But it isn’t good enough. And Hillary is certainly better than Trump, but she’s also not good enough.
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Gee, if you’d thrown in “he’s not really a Democrat,” I would been able to shout “Bingo!”
I recognize that we aren’t going to agree on any of this. I am obviously a Sanders supporter, and you obviously aren’t. Where I see passion and dedication, you see an “irritating curmudgeon throwing a temper tantrum.” Po-tay-to, po-tah-to… Sure. Fine. Whatever. There’s no point in arguing… but I’m going to try to explain my point anyway, as politely as I can, because I’m an idiot that way. 
So I have to ask: were the insults really necessary? When I wrote my earlier posts, I made an effort to show both you and Clinton some respect. Yet you apparently don’t feel Sanders should have any respect. I know: he lost. And he lost by a decent amount, though I don’t consider it a blowout. He might not have always fought wisely or well-- I didn’t like that bit with the superdelegates either. (Though given how many of them seemed to have set their course before the primaries even started, I can understand how he might have felt desperate and acted–poorly–on it.) But– he fought a fairly good fight and picked up a lot of support. And many of his supporters-- myself included-- still feel passionately for him and the platform he pushed.
If Hillary and her supporters truly respected Sanders and his supporters, if we are truly supposed to believe that she will adopt at least some of his positions and fight to make them happen, they might offer some respect. But… I realize I’m not impartial, but I still sense a lingering air of condescension and contempt. “Why doesn’t he just quit already. He’s a sore loser. He should get over it and fall in line.” (And yes, I’m aware that it doesn’t often come from Hillary. More often than not it comes from her supporters, both in person and on-line. Yet Hillary doesn’t exactly go out of her way to shut it down, does she. And yes, I know the obnoxious crap the BernieBros threw at her and her supporters in return. I don’t approve of that either.) If the time truly has come to pull together and work together to defeat Trump, then both sides need to make accomodations. In my eyes, Bernie has started the process by announcing he will vote for Hillary. And Hillary has continued it by giving him the ability to choose members of the platform-writing committee. I see Bernie holding out to get the best possible deal; you see a cranky old man frittering away his influence through stubbornness. But we’re not going to agree there. 
There’s something you really ought to consider. It’s a long, long road to November. And in the long run, Bernie’s endorsement might not be the game-changer you think it will. Sure, I love the guy. I would have voted for him in November with a song in my heart. But now he’s out of the race. So I get to decide who will serve in my best interest and therefore deserves my vote. And Bernie can recommend whoever he wants to. He could tell me that Hillary will hang the moon, spin straw into gold, and bring back Firefly. (If only!) But I’m going to make my own decision. And if Hillary and her supporters continue to treat Sanders with contempt and brush his ideas aside, why should I support her? I know she’s adopted a lot of his talking points. But talk is talk, and she’s already said so many things during this campaign. Some of them directly oppose each other. Let’s see some action to prove which words are true. What do I need to see to convince me? I don’t know yet. And yes, I acknowledge I’m a hard sell and may never feel satisfied enough. My one, puny little vote doesn’t matter much either. But there are many polls that indicate this will be a very, very close race. So it makes sense that Hillary will need every vote she can get. She needs to start mending fences now. Otherwise, she is just as likely to lose votes over time as she is to gain them. Jill Stein has already made it clear she’ll welcome Bernie voters with open arms. She won’t condemn me to some “special place in hell” if I don’t support her every whim. With every insult to Sanders I hear, Stein just looks better and better.
(And yes, I am uncomfortably aware of how much my mishmash of emotion and logic sounds like one of the apologia for the Leave voters. Am I choosing emotion over reason, spite over self-interest? I’ve got no answers for that. I realize I may be full of 
, but this is where I’m at in this moment. I’m probably going to be struggling with who I’ll vote for until I step into the booth.)
@enso, I’ll need to get back to you after I go run some errands and clear my head some more. It’s taken a lot of effort (and waaaaaaaaaay too many words) for me to respond in a polite tone. I need to get rid of some more temper first. 
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Luckily I voted for Sanders in the primary!
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Naaaah. If somebody votes differently that I do, for their own reasons, then whether or not I agree, I’m cool with it. It’s just… why are there still insults flying. We don’t need sore losers or sore winners now. And I’m still hurt enough over Bernie’s loss (and unenthusiastic about Hillary) that when I read the insults, I see red. So I watch my temper because I don’t want to be luck-dragon-chow. But we’re cool. 
And to be honest I’m still pondering how to answer the question. What voice should Bernie really have? As much as I hate it, Sanders lost; he’s not owed a voice, or anything, by anyone. It’s an arrogant statement, but true. It’s also dumb. As I said, Hillary will need every vote she can get and it would be foolhardy for her to dismiss and ignore him and his supporters. They number a considerable portion of her own party, plus quite a few Independents whose votes she could attract. Allowing Bernie to select some of the platform-writing delegates is a good start (though I thought I heard they aren’t achieving much.) Adopting at least some parts of the Sanders platform, and making concrete efforts to achieve them, would be great too, and I think some of it is likely to happen at the convention. What else? I just don’t know what it would take for me to say, there, that’s it, I’m good with her now. She hob-nobs with the corporate, big-money people too much for my liking; it makes me wonder if she’s really committed to helping the average person. She tends to say whatever is politically expedient (well, all politicians do, even Bernie) to the point that I don’t know what to believe she will actually do. It’s going to take time, and observing what Clinton says and does for a while, before I know whether or not I’ll be willing to vote for her. I’ve got no answers.
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I really wrote “the diabetics”? Christ, what an asshole…
The US healthcare system is terrible and broken, even for those lucky enough to be covered by their employers/family members/etc. ACA is an imperfect, minimalist fix. Could anything better have been realistically achieved? I seriously doubt it. Even with the path of very least resistance, a huge part of the electorate was throwing a tantrum about fascist jackboots stomping on their sacred right not to be insured and Republicans gladly played chicken with the very functioning of the state over an attempt to kill it.
ACA was the best one could hope for - in my book (and I assume that’s where we fundamentally philosophically differ), the best option is also automatically “good enough.”
My question was a more practical one: what voice should/can he have in the Democratic convention, platform, party? I mean, mechanically, how does he even get a voice? How is it expressed if the party wants to capture the people that flocked to him?
