Bernie Sanders on Brexit: urgent lessons for the Democrats

boing
123

If Bernie wants to influence Clinton, then he should probably say (have said) that he concedes and that he supports Clinton and would be happy to work with her to overcome the perils facing our nation.

Of course, this probably involves a fair amount of lying on Bernie’s part… he doesn’t support Clinton and definitely doesn’t want to be runner-up. So he doesn’t say any of those things, gets marginalized, and watches as Clinton goes on tour with Elizabeth Warren, who’s clearly ever so slightly more pragmatic than him. I think Clinton’s tour with Warren is evidence of Clinton’s concern about keeping the left of the Democratic party in the fold… the bankers hate Warren.

If Warren got made the VP pick, then I’d say that’s Sanders’ legacy… no way that would have happened if he hadn’t made his run.

1 Like
124

I’m not sure. I haven’t always paid attention to the nuts and bolts of how things are worked out at conventions. I would assume there’s going to be a ton of back-room dealing and favors traded, but as to what form it will-- or should-- take, I have no clue.

125

Concession gains him nothing. Once he releases his delegates, most of the influence he has ends. So it makes sense to make the best deal he can for influence, for what part he will play in the campaign, before he concedes. He’s never said he won’t concede, he just said he isn’t, yet.

Insults again? Really? He said he will support the nominee, even if it wasn’t him. He’s said he will vote for Hillary in November. He is doing exactly what he said he would do. That isn’t lying, under any definition of the word.

That’s one thing I can agree with. :slight_smile: I love Warren, though she would probably have more power as a Senator than as a VP.

1 Like
126

As it happens, I voted for Sanders in the Georgia primary. I do support the bulk of his goals, but not the guns issue. So don’t make assumptions.

But my overwhelming priority is to defeat Trump, not remain pure for Sanders. I won’t let the near perfect be the enemy of the good. More broadly, my goal since the Reagan administration has been to defeat Republicans wherever I can.

Sanders risks making both of those goals more difficult, though it seems most of his supporters, save the True Believers, don’t share his strategy. Reserving an endorsement so that you can get the most concessions you can is a reasonable, though risky, strategy. It only works when you can trade votes for concessions. But if 80% of your votes have already swung, you don’t have a lot left to trade.

A rational strategy at that point is to take what you’ve got, go ahead and get on the team, and try to work from inside to make further progress. If he doesn’t do that, and soon, he will have traded away his votes for nothing at all.

Hilary has never treated Sanders with contempt, by the way, and I don’t get how Sanders’ True Believers continue to believe that. He had more representation on the platform committee than any other losing candidate. He got a lot of the policy points he wanted. Clinton has never, even now, suggested he should get out of the race. So in what way, exactly, by what specific acts or words has he been treated with contempt?

I have, however, seen an awful lot of Sanders supporters accusing Clinton of being a corporatist sellout, criminal on the verge of being indicted, untrustworthy, sleazy, unethical, all without any significant evidence at all. How, exactly, is that NOT treating someone with contempt?

I get it that Sanders and his supporters want respect for what they have accomplished. But you don’t get respect if you don’t give respect as well. Temper tantrums are not respect-worthy.

127

I legitimately was not aware Hillary turned against TPP and was now pushing a public option. I hadn’t seen that here or on any casual sources I follow (Daily Show, Last Week Tonight, 538, etc.). I feel like there is a communication issue there if I was able to stay acutely informed on their positions during the primary process and now am missing important details during the general election.

1 Like
128

Which will all mean jack shit when she does the Clintonian thing and picks Tim Kaine.

And us lefties will still be stuck choosing between Clinton/Kaine and Trump/Gingrich.

1 Like
129

I’ve acknowledged the mudslinging by supporters of both sides. I’ve acknowledged the idiot BernieBros, and I’ve said I don’t agree with them. How about all those Hillary supporters who accused any and all Bernie supporters of being sexist? Racist? Too young and immature to know any better? Just because we haven’t seen them here doesn’t mean it didn’t happen-- I saw plenty of it on other comment boards.

Nor have I thrown even one tantrum in this thread. I have made every effort to be civil. I have not thrown a single insult at Clinton or her supporters. I never used words like, lying, irritating curmudgeon, temper tantrum… So who’s making assumptions?

Aw, screw it.

Have a nice day, have fun storming the castle, have fun voting for Clinton.

5 Likes
130

If Bernie wants to influence Clinton, then he should probably say (have said) that he concedes and that he supports Clinton and would be happy to work with her to overcome the perils facing our nation.

Concession gains him nothing. Once he releases his delegates, most of the influence he has ends. So it makes sense to make the best deal he can for influence, for what part he will play in the campaign, before he concedes. He’s never said he won’t concede, he just said he isn’t, yet.

But it’s too late… no one’s paying attention to him any more. Once he lost in California, he could have negotiated terms and conceded. I think he has had a lot of influence on Clinton, and she would have been happy to have him where Warren is now if he conceded. But he didn’t, Warren threw her lot in with Clinton and she’s on tour with Clinton now advocating for the things he has been advocating for. I don’t fault Warren for this, but I do feel bad for Sanders.

Of course, this probably involves a fair amount of lying on Bernie’s part…

Insults again? Really? He said he will support the nominee, even if it wasn’t him. He’s said he will vote for Hillary in November. He is doing exactly what he said he would do. That isn’t lying, under any definition of the word.

Not an insult. He would support Clinton as the nominee, but he still hasn’t given up going to the convention. It would be an untruth if he said he was happy to support her. So he didn’t and he’s being marginalized. I’m not sure how happy Warren is with Clinton as the nominee… I’m sure she would have preferred Sanders, but she’s rolling with it and people are paying attention to her now. Warren is now the voice of the left of the Democratic party where Sanders once was. It did not have to be this way.

1 Like
131

Without countries, there would not be Somalian pirates. What I see is not a world with no countries, but rather systems which make it easier to make and break countries with interested people. In a few decades there could be thousands of countries, and you might be a citizen of several of them.

1 Like
132

I admit to being bitter over the Sander’s loss, but I’ve found that any time I try to put out a hand in general direction of Clinton to say, “Well, I hope that we’ll at least get X from her” it gets bitten off by a supporter. I am increasingly of the genuine opinion, sans any bitterness or disappointment, that what they want at this point is a kind of contrition. I voted for Sanders. I’m happy I voted for Sanders. I’m happy my state went to Sanders. I wish he had a lock on the nomination. None of that is going to change, and it’s especially not going to change with people yelling at me to “fall in line.” I wish I were creating a straw-man, but at this point those literal words have been used. I’m of the belief that all anger stems from entitlement, and I could go on about it, but whether that anger is right or wrong, entitlement is the source. I’m angry because I’m entitled to reach a decision and make a choice about who I vote for. They’re angry because they feel entitled to reach a decision and make a choice about who I vote for, based on the loose affiliation of being “on the left.” You will never see them so short-tempered with a Republican holding their nose and voting for Trump. Of these senses of entitlement, one is reasonable and the other is not. I think the sense that I get from a lot of Bernie supporters at this point is that the endless insults and the refusal to back off even a little is more than irksome, and at this point I’m starting to consider it a major issue.

If you tell me that we should vote for Hillary and then use her promises to hold her to account, I could potentially buy that. It’s an argument I don’t discredit out of hand, namely: Elect her and make sure she knows who’s boss. Fine, nothing wrong with that argument. What I’m seeing, however, is a lot of hogwash where none of her shortcomings are being acknowledged, people are being lambasted for legitimate doubts, and there is a call for people to fall in line. That does nothing to create a sense that the voters going to be holding the reigns of her presidency come inauguration day. She won’t have to make any hard promises, and all because she’s facing a clown. What I need at this point is something that isn’t hard to provide, and yet at every turn it’s refused: A promise you won’t lock ranks and obstruct efforts to move her after she becomes president. Her presidency isn’t the end of anything, and it’s important to have a plan to follow-through. Hell, I’d take “I don’t do anything after the election, I think voting’s all I have to do and then I nap for four years.” At least then I’d know that all of this insult and all of this vitriol is just about winning one election and calling it a day.

8 Likes
133

Which one is Clinton? Good or Near Perfect?

1 Like
134

Chill. Your a half a degree left of sounding like a Trump supporter.

135

Okay, there’s no reason for that level of insult here.

2 Likes
136

Oh my!? The vapors! Your cutting insult has shown me the errors of my way.

2 Likes
137

I thought that about Clinton when she ran in 2008. It has nothing to do with supporting Sanders other than desperately wanting someone, anyone, who is actually progressive to support from the Democrats.

1 Like
138

The sum of his replies have been “What about the Americans they matter more”, "“I’m an American, as is my entire family, and we don’t live in Mexico so why should I care about Mexico if Americans are suffering?”, and topped of with a sarcastic apology for keeping it too real.

The comparison is more than apt.

139

I don’t even know what your stance on “free trade” happens to be. Way to say close to nothing. What about my argument is predicated on hypothetical assumptions? Honestly I have no idea where you stand. I was merely saying where I stood… which was “I support free trade assuming that everyone’s on the same playing field”. Not sure what’s so “pie in the sky about that” it’s the world we should all be working towards no? In the mean time we should either not allow importing products that are the result of human slavery (shrimp from SE asia and the like), or products created under horrifically unsafe conditions, or where the environment is being destroyed. Or at the very least add tariffs to collect money that will be used to offset these things.

140

There’s a YUGE difference between “Let’s try and fix the problems closer to home before we go charging off fixing everyone else’s problems” and Trump’s line of “Mexicans (and Muslims and immigrants etc.) are the problem.”

1 Like
141

Are you crying?

It seems to boggle your mind that I want the citizens of my own nation to do well, to have an economic future, etc. before I worry about those of other nations. That is no judgement on other nations. That is taking care of our own first. Is this a difficult concept for you?

Why should I worry about the economic conditions of Sri Lanka when I can literally walk two blocks and see people lining up trying to get day work because they have few options?

1 Like
144

You seem to be.

I’m sure he appreciates your empathy.

All those people who sent him donations want him to be there. Many of those donations came when there was no hope at all of his getting the nomination, and most of the rest when he had little chance. That should tell you that his supporters were much more about the process and having a platform for the message than about winning. Anyone who thinks that once he had officially lost he should have bowed out and gone away…those are people who care more about winning than about message.

2 Likes