Holy crap, that beast would be fun! I’ve test-ridden a 650C road bike, and it was a hoot with the smaller wheels. A proper hardcore weapon like that with 20" wheels would be dynamite!
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Compact aluminium frame with a carbon seatpost gets around the issue of harshness pretty well.
I’ve got an ally bike from the 90s with a level top tube and slightly oversize tubes, and it’s harsh. My carbon bike is stiffer, and heaps more compliant at the same time, but I know what you mean about the dead feel - although the springiness of steel you refer to is a bit of an esoteric luxury IMO.
My 70s steel bike is 531, but it doesn’t feel special; I think for that you need one of the nivachrome steel bikes from the 90s, when they had pretty much reached steel’s zenith. One of these days I’ll obtain such a frame… And probably a while after that I’ll get hold of a fourth bike in Ti…
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I love Reynolds 853. It feels great. I had it used on the front triangle of my good road bike (with Columbus EL/OS for the back). It’s a great combo.
Some of the late 90’s and early 00’s Deda tube sets were pretty sweet. Lighter than you’d imagine, too.
Titanium- good titanium- is like steel turned to 11. Lighter, springier, and, in the right shapes, just a fantastic lively material.
That said, there were a great many mediocre Ti bikes that I didn’t care for- too noodly and floppy. It really needed larger diameter tubes, and butting worked wonders.
My dad’s Ti Serottas are my gold standard, but the early Seven that my mom rides is a lovely bit of work, too.
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I’m also not entirely sure about the springiness of steel being an “esoteric luxury” either, now that I’ve thought about it. I’ve seen/ridden lugged steel road bikes that weigh 16.5lbs or so- that with normal components and a full road build. That’s pretty close to UCI minimums, so it’s still a “relevant” material- if weight is your only measure.
But we’ve been talking in this thread about how comfort can be a big benefit in the world of racing- so imagine a new-school lightweight steel bike with a carbon seatpost and all that, weighing what they can weigh, and I wonder: what’s the downside, exactly?
Such sweet steel frames aren’t exactly thick on the ground, and carbon bikes are a dime a dozen these days, that’s all I meant by esoteric… It’s not something most riders these days will get a chance to sample.
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Ah. That totally makes sense.
And what a damn shame it is- because I cannot imagine that if more people had the opportunity to ride bikes like that, they’d likely pick them over the carbon or aluminum options.
But maybe I’m wrong.
Steel has a strong connotation of heavy, and maybe I’m not giving that enough of a due.
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Your preference for steel seems to skew recent and very high-end. While that has been deservedly been making a comeback of sorts, I’ve mostly seen it limited to boutique, give-me-the-best-at-any-cost custom handcrafted affairs (NAHBS, anyone?). That, or collector-priced limited “homage” editions (Specialized, Miyata).
The least expensive Reynolds 853 frame I’ve found in a lazy one-minute search was this $1200 Genesis. And the description says 853 is the affordable ultralight steel option vs. 953. Not Sheik inheritance money, but still three times the starting price of a probably-won’t-kill-you unbranded carbon frame from China.
I get the feeling the general perception of steel might differ from your own because most of us regular schlubs are more familiar with, let’s say, sturdier but more affordable fare like entry-level-Nivachrom Columbus Zona, Tange Prestige or equivalent (Colossi, All-City, Soma), panzer-strong 531 or generic “4130” (Surly, tourers and racers from most of the 20th century, a gazillion fixies) or worse.
Personally, I’m just happy I could find a 1982 first cousin of that “some Dutch guy rode this bike to victory over friggin’ Bernard Hinault on a friggin’ mountain stage of the Tour so we’re calling it a legend and making a dozen reissue models including one with 18k gold plating somehow” Miyata shipped all the way from the Netherlands to Brazil.
It might be older, less shiny tech but it’s perfectly lovely. And there’s something refreshing about how affordable something that was cutting edge, pro-level, made in Japan when that meant something can become in 30 years if it survives that long without becoming some sort of cult classic. And I sure as hell wouldn’t pay for the new one.
#####1982 Koga-Miyata ProRacer, Tange Champion tubing: cheap on eBay if you can find it
2014 The Miyata Legend, Miyata Spiral Spline Triple Butted tubing: $5600(!?)
Madness.
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Yeah. My taste ain’t cheap.
I grew up riding steel- some mid-range Windsors and then a (now) vintage Lotus Competition. That was a lovely Japanese lugged frame made from some Columbus tubing (though, it pains me to admit, I can’t remember the tubeset used. Alas). It was a lovely riding bike, and much along the lines of what I’d love to see again.
953 wasn’t available when my good bike was made, but 853 was some very, very nice stuff. Back when Trek owned Lemond, there were some totally decent 853 frames that were mid-line. Those kick around for ~$300-500 frames on ebay. Not too bad, I’d say. Or, as you point out, the 70’s - 80’s Japanese steel bikes are still really nice. They’re only troublesome in that they tend to have 126mm rear spacing (not too hard to fix that with some cold setting…) and 1" head tubes (which makes the addition of a modern carbon fork much more difficult. Still…
I have a Surly Steamroller- an early one, at that. It’s 4130 butted tubing, and for what it is, it rides WAY better than it has any business riding. I have a sweet spot for bikes that punch above their weight, and I’ve (generally) found Surly to be that way. I do like their stuff.
I totally realize that the really good stuff is squarely in fetish land- there is no practical reason for those bikes.
Part of that is the upbringing- you grow up riding decent bikes and it’s easy to end up in crazy bike land. The other part is fit: my torso and arms are pretty long for my height, and stock frames (especially on road bikes) don’t really fit me. At all. That Lotus I mention above had a 135mm stem on it and was still to short across the top. So once you’re in gotta-buy-custom land, and if you’re the type to hold on to bikes for a long time (like I do), getting a really nice steel frame was kind of a no brainer. A really expensive no brainer, but there you go.
I’d be hard pressed to spend that sort of loot on a bike these days- I’m at a different point with a different set of priorities. That’s ok- I’m really happy to have what I have, and I think I’ll be riding it for a very long time. But if/when priorities change again, if I’m in the market for a “good” bike… I’ll still be looking at steel.
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Pictures, man. You tease.
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Of?
Road bike:
Lug detail:
Front triangle is 853 (double butted), rear triangle is Columbus EL/OS. Front fork crown is a Cinelli internal, front dropouts are Vintage Suntour Track (they’re extra thick and beefy). Rear drops are Henry James stainless steel. Lugs are (as I understand it) long out of production.
Gruppo is Campy 8spd- a mix of Chorus and Record. Headset is unlabeled/sterile Chris King, wheels were hand built by me with Mavic rims, DT Revolution spokes, and alloy nipples (gold gold gold green on the front, green green green gold on the rear). Pedals are old-school custom painted DuraAce. Tires are prototype Specialized from forever ago.
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What a beaut. That’s some Elvish craft right there.
Not to be confused with Rivendell’s more Tolkienish concepts. Or indeed with Cycles Elvish.
Is that an original-run Selle Italia Flite saddle?
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Lovely lugs - is the gusset integrated into the lug casting or a separate piece brazed on? I’ve seen some great examples of classic-diameter tubing being gusseted to reinforce the joins, but not on lugged frames - generally tig-welded.
Those are investment cast lugs- all one piece. They’re pinned and then brass brazed to the tubes. Except in the rear triangle, which is silver brazed.
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Interesting - never seen anything like those gussets before.
You can silver-braze all lugs - I think Bob Jackson do this - as silver brazing alloy flows more easily than brass and at lower temperatures - which means lower distortion and no real need to drill exhaust holes to let the hot gases out of the tubes. It’s probably the latter of these reasons that motivated silver brazing your rear triangle.
Sort of.
853 has a minimum requirement for temperature- that is to say, you must heat it beyond that temperature as it will air harden as it cools down. This is the opposite of traditional tubing.
My rear triangle is more traditional, and my wish to use the stainless dropouts meant silver in the back.
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Eh? As time goes on, that means more and more. Shimano’s cheap stuff is made in Malaysia now, for instance.
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Eh. Maybe I’m cynical, but to me there’s a certain lost mystique to 80s “Made in Japan” that feels like a mix of vibrant design, top technology and craftsmanship not found anywhere else at the time.
But in this age of “proudly designed / assembled in wherever (from Chinese-made parts)” I don’t really feel much of anything from “made in” labels in general.
I understand many companies keep their top product lines in the expensive-country home factories as a symbol of commitment to tradition and excellence or whatever. I’m not convinced it makes as much non-symbolic difference as it once did.
It’s cool to see Continental tires with “made in Germany” written on the side, but I don’t really think the product would be inferior in 2016 if outsourced competently to, say, Taiwan. Taiwan makes excellent bike stuff. But the mystique is gone. Times have changed. That Made in Japan 2014 Miyata? Not worth it, sorry.
Hope I’m making sense.
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I had heard vague things in passing about the quality of the Miyata brand, but had never seen one or knew anything concrete, really. I was thinking about getting a 90s MTB off Craigslist and scanning the new bike photos for a frame that would fit me. I saw a long headtube on a vintage roadie and gave the ad a look. A 63cm Miyata, and it was only $180. Worth it, I figured, but in my market I felt I could offer a lower price. But it was way the hell out in the boondocks, maybe a 45min highway drive and I don’t drive. So I emailed and said, in a nutshell, “if you fly, I’ll buy; at the full asking price.” I gave the same pitch to a guy with an MTB who never replied. The Miyata guy got right back to me and seemed to welcome an excuse to make an intown visit and pick up a little cash in the process. This is the bike I posted near the beginning of this thread.
When I was going over the bike and checked the tubing decal was when I learned that Miyata made their own steel, and that mine was triple butted (an '87, The first year it was offered, I later found out.) It was a done deal. I consider myself lucky. Finding a frame in my size is lucky enough, but getting this frame was a real gem. (Could really have done without the 144 BCD on the crank, though. A 42-tooth ring is the smallest it will take, so I’ve come to accept that there’s no way around it, I gotta swap cranks.)
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Miyata did a bit of everything but was more famous for the touring models as far as I know. Their ‘1000’ model from the 80s is on many lists of best touring bikes of all time, along with the Trek 720 of the same time period.
Seems like there’s still a whole lot of 70s-90s Miyatas in decent condition to be found secondhand (or Euro trim Koga-Miyatas), so I’m guessing they were built to last if nothing else.
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