If they weren’t true I think that I would say something to the effect of them not being true. I would probably mix in that its a serious claim and how much I feel for actual victims…
His response just makes him seem like more than just a rapist. He is a rapist that seems to think his position in the world should be more important to us than any crime perpetrated against any woman.
I hear you, but not sure I can feel it. Bill Cosby’s Himself is one of my favourite things, the way he earnestly talks about the faults in his marriage and his family. Not sure I can love it the same way now. Innocence lost, and all that…
Who gave you permission to ask that?
next …
Why the hell am I reading this?
Lance Armstrong was pretty big on not taking drugs up till being kicked.
It isn’t? I always thought the art, once released, gets its own life.
There are too few good things in the world to justify suddenly considering them less good just because of what their originators happened to do. If you want to deprive yourself of enjoyment of an art just because something about the author surfaced up, it’s your choice, however.
[quote=“RJMeelar, post:2, topic:46658”]
Assume for a second he is innocent and all the allegations are false. What reasonable person would think that rape allegations from more than 10 women should be ignored and not even considered a topic of questioning?[/quote]
What could he say that would make any difference?
In any case, this is tragic regardless of whether the allegations are true or not. Either an iconic man who stood up for black equality has been maliciously destroyed, or 10 women have been violated by an untouchable predator and they might never be able to obtain justice for it.
I think in this case it is harder than in many others because for an actor/comedian his own person is such an obvious central part of his performance.
I am not sure that the Richard Wagner of classic family sitcoms is a concept that works well in practice.
I understand where you’re coming from, and I do not lightly forgive such sins as those alleged to be committed by the artists we’re discussing. In fact, it’s not even remotely my place to forgive them, since I’m the kind of person who is least-sinned-against in nearly every imaginable circumstance.
At the same time, this kind of stuff happens often enough that I don’t expect any of the artists whose work I admire to end up living lives as blameless as, say, Fred Rogers or Jimmy Carter. Art is a human endeavor, an act perpetrated by humans, with foibles and frailties. We all know that Evil is not stereotypically ugly, and does not customarily wear a black hat and twirl its mustache. Beautiful acts can be performed by the same hands as profoundly evil ones, and we would be wise to never, ever forget that, and all its implications.
Oh crap. Crosby too??
Apparently Crosby was abusive to his family. Really, the more you learn, the more you never want to leave home.
Bill Cosby has been preaching morals for decades now, telling others how they should act and what they should do. BUT HE IS (likely) A RAPIST.
HE can’t separate his own art from himself – how can we?
Have you been paying any attention to Bill Cosby? At all? Ever? For his entire career? He preaches to other people – mostly black men – on how they should act. That was a big part of Hannibal Burress “call out”: Bill Cosby is a man who thinks he has a right to tell other black me how to act, essentially saying that they don’t act right or proper – except he’s a fucking rapist. His ENTIRE PERSONALITY, HIS ENTIRE BEING, HIS ENTIRE IMAGE is his art.
This is a really good point.
With someone like Lovecraft or Wagner, it’s blatantly obvious, it’s there, in your face and you deal with it. I’m not entirely convinced art can be 100% divorced from the artist but it’s easier to step over when it’s clearly visible, like dogshit on the pavement.
When an artist has spent their career building themselves a charade of respectability in order to hide their crimes, everything they have ever said or done becomes suspect. Were they actually trying to create something or just maneuvering themselves into a position where they can commit more crimes. They themselves are giving the lie to their body of work and nothing can really be seen in the same light ever again. It’s dogshit hidden in a cup of pudding. Or something. Analogy fails at this point.
Sure. That’s what makes him a particularly frustrating case, and adds to the sense of betrayal a lot of people feel about him. He acted like a good guy, a compassionate and loving success story, someone who seemed dedicated to improving the lot of people in general, and black people specifically. Even when he was being preachy or intellectually dishonest, it usually seemed to be in the service of higher goals than his own personal aggrandizement.
A lot of what he said and did was probably sincere. He did a lot of good. And now it seems he may have done some real evil as well. He’s certainly called into question everything he’s said and done, and a great deal of the good he’s done is tainted (if not ruined) by this.
My point, such as it is, is that this right here is one of the dangers of our idolatrous relationship to celebrity. Look at what went wrong with John Edwards and Anthony Weiner: smart and powerful men who were poised to leave large (and possibly quite positive) marks on their respective political resumes, both brought low by familiar sexual weaknesses and appetites that are enabled (if not caused) by the power and influence and charisma that reinforced their political successes up to that time. Sound familiar?
Don’t mistake me for forgiving these men. I just happen to believe that their flaws are understandable human flaws, much more common than most of us are prepared to admit, and the ability to indulge in these flaws, the freedom to use one’s power and influence and charisma to manipulate others into submitting to one’s sexual desires, those are the things I feel remain under-addressed in our culture. The urge isn’t going to go away, and is not reliably more absent in ostensibly “good” people than in more-obviously “bad” ones. What people are permitted to get away with, particularly men of charisma and influence, is the problem that needs our attention.
ETA: This isn’t meant to give the impression that I feel that these guys (or anyone who victimizes someone else) aren’t to blame for their actions, or that I feel they must be powerless to resist the temptations otherwise they wouldn’t stray from the path of righteousness. I think we’re all tempted to “sin” (for lack of a less-unwieldy term), and most of us manage to resist the temptations we believe we shouldn’t indulge in. These guys should have resisted their temptations, and did not, and so deserve all the opprobrium we can heap on their heads. But I think it’s a mistake to think of any of them as inhuman monsters. Being good to others (especially when it’s at our own expense, or the expense of our blue-balled libidos) doesn’t always come naturally, and it’s a muscle that needs to be constantly exercised lest it grow flabby. We need to remind ourselves every day to take care of each other and not victimize each other, because on some level, sooner or later, each and every one of us will have occasion to reflect, “there, but for the grace of FSM, go I.”
It is also a bit easier to turn a blind eye to someone like Lovecraft because he was a creature of his times. It makes people that were resistant to those sorts of cultural stereotypes all the more heroic, but someone acting like an asshole racist in 1930s is easier much swallow than someone acting like a racist now. You have to give people of the past a little slack for failing to live up to modern ideals, and you need to celebrate the hell out of people that had something near modern ideals in a time when they were not yet accepted.
Cosby on the other hand is a contemporary, and rape is pretty timeless sin. Add on top of that the fact that his art is portrayed as his very own persona, and it is pretty hard to not have all of his work sullied by the accusation.
Yeah I was going to mention this.
You see, you can find SOMETHING you don’t like about EVERYONE. From their political leanings, to youthful indiscretions, to alcohol and/or drugs, to abuse or worse. Some of it you may or may not be able to forgive the PERSON for.
However the ART or WORKS is a stand alone. It’s a frozen moment in time, separate from the PERSON performing or creating. Even the most despicable person is capable of something of beauty and value at some point in their life.
Well, the system eventually worked for the victims of Rolf Harris.
Yeah, but even hypocrites can be right. If a thief tells you shouldn’t steal, even though they continue to so, doesn’t mean it 's ok to steal. EVERYONE does things they know they shouldn’t do. Every parent tells their kids to not do something they are guilty of. So we are all hypocrites in a way. Most of us are at least trying to get better.
Projecting much? I don’t even know what the fuck you are trying to say, or what on earth it is you think that I said. What I did say, in case I was actually so unclear as to make you think I was a rape apologist, is that the man, if guilty, should get on his knees, and acknowledge that most sexual assault victims (like his) never come forward for fear of shame and humiliation, and that in fact he relied on that to get away with his crimes. Like it or not, these allegations are going to place him at the center of a newly reinvigorated discussion about sexual assault.
