Bill Cosby speaks to Associated Press on allegations he is a serial rapist

20 years ago you could have said the same thing about OJ Simpson (I know, but c’mon, he was an actor). The wholesome all-American public image while playing football, he had a fairly decent career in TV and movies, and even his domestic violence arrest didn’t seem to put much of a damper on things.

But after some of that evidence came out at the trial…awful stuff. I remember watching one of the Naked Gun movies (we still have the VHS collection somewhere around here) in '96 or so; I got ill when his character came on the screen. But time+tragedy=comedy, and re-watching some of his work after so long, that visceral reaction is gone.

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Reminds me of something I read the other day (I was rewatching Capricorn One, and looked it up). It was directed by Peter Hyams:

From Wiki:

Hyams later joked, “O. J. Simpson was in it, and Robert Blake was in (Hyams’ first feature) Busting. I’ve said many times: some people have AFI Lifetime Achievement awards; some people have multiple Oscars; my bit of trivia is that I’ve made films with two leading men who were subsequently tried for the first degree murder of their wives.”

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I disagree. Take, for example, two similar works of abstract art: one sells for a cool million, while the other is tacked to a coffee shop wall with a hundred dollar price tag. I contend that the person absolutely matters when considering the provenance of a work of art. Context is everything.

Cosby may be a serial rapist. That necessarily diminishes the value of his work.

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I disagree. In Cosby’s case, his art is performance at least as much as writing, and much of his material is very much of a certain point in time. We won’t have to wait until long after he’s dead for his relevance to pass out of the zeitgeist, and he may well become a footnote that falls somewhere between Roscoe Arbuckle and Jackie Gleason on the spectrum of “didn’t he use to be somebody?” His work is not timeless; it’s ephemeral and of-that-moment, and for his art, yeah, context is very important.

But context isn’t always available, and plenty of art that is of a certain age or older has had much of its context stripped away by the ravages of time, and I’d argue that that does not necessarily diminish the value of that art. Would Hamlet be a lesser work if new evidence came to light that Shakespeare sired bastards all over London, never supported any of them, and refused to tip his waitress? I don’t think so. The new context would reveal that he was a cad and a bounder and a worse human being than we’d thought… but how does that affect the value of these plays that have outlived their creator by four centuries, been performed in nearly every language, and taught in schools and universities the world over as being among the finest examples of playwriting in the history of the English language?

Yeah, Cosby is no Shakespeare, and his work will probably not long survive him in the public consciousness (even if he never stood accused of rape, his moment is passed), and context informs our appreciation of his work more heavily than it might color our appreciation of a Bach concerto, but even though context is frequently important where available, it is very far from everything.

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You think a sociopath was being sincere? Are you kidding me???

He claims to have the moral high ground. That’s his ENTIRE SHTICK. Except he is a rapist.

He is just like every Republican who preaches family values and then gets caught with their pants down or with blow up their nose. EXACTLY.

Why are you defending this guy and his “art” - which IS Bill Cosby; HE is his art. And he is a disgusting piece of trash.

It’s interesting to me that it’s yet ANOTHER man who has done clearly terrible shit to women being defended here. A women would NEVER get this sort of pass. Fuck, even the victims who are coming out aren’t having people like you defending them with such passion.

HE IS A RAPIST. And a morally corrupt hypocrite.

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This is bullshit.

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Yeah, I’m not really getting this ‘art as a separate entity’ thing.

I’m from the UK, so have not seen much of this guys work. If you class him as an actor, then the art isn’t his anyway (he turned up to read lines). But he seems more of a stand up, with various shows as vehicle for that. The act of the stand up is the stand up. They make take on a persona to make a point, but even that is an aspect of the stand up. He is the art.

Even when someone creates a piece of art that isn’t directly themselves as the art, they are still linked. For example, music. I wont be spinning any Rolf Harris or Paul Gadd anytime soon, because their art is completely linked to them and isn’t actually separate at all.

The thing about other pieces of art being enjoyed by people today, but may have been produced by a shocking criminal a couple of hundred years ago. Yes, but isn’t that either ignorance of the artists crime or the crime no longer being considered a crime anymore?

Artist ‘Bob’, exiled from the country for turning his back on the King of the day, isn’t going to register as a big deal today.
If I enjoy artist 'Bob’s painting and later find out ‘Bob’ was a rapist, well, I will not be enjoying Bobs painting anymore.

(Apologies to anyone called Bob, just a random name.)

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I take it then, that you’re not a fan of the dramatic arts.

Just out of curiosity, why has the dam broken now? If these allegations were always out there, why does the media care NOW? If they weren’t always out there, what made people come out now?

This makes me sad, but usually all the people who do great things are also perpetrators of bad things. MLK Jr cheated on his wife. Julian Assange (allegedly) sexually assaulted someone. Cosby and this stuff. FDR and his philandering. If I find out Ghandi was having crazy orgies, I wouldn’t be surprised at this point.

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His career was picking up again, so he was in the media eye in a way he hasn’t been for many years.

You probably don’t want to google his name and the word “grandniece” then. Straight-up orgies would be preferable to what he put a multitude of women through due to his strange negative obsession with sex.

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It’s really wonderful that the comments in this thread are so thoughtful that I find myself “liking” opposing comments because both sides are making good arguments.

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Men who hold a lot of power tend to be pretty fucked up. Not all men, and I am sure some powerful women are pretty effed up, too. But I don’t find it surprising that a famous, rich and powerful man takes advantage of people more vulnerable than he.

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Cosby was planning a return to television–maybe a weekly sitcom. another channel (possibly Netflix) was doing some sort of tribute, as his age getting to be a nice round number.
So from the POV of the entertainment industry, these allegations had sort of a timeliness that they might not have had when periodic “Cosby scolds black culture” stories were the only thing of note.

Mod note: Posts eaten. There is collateral damage.

I am. And, right now, getting paid to get stoned as well. It’s a pretty good deal. I’d rather have a transcript too though, cos the TV’s on.

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“For some odd reason” - proceed directly to Rebecca Solnit’s “Men Explain Things To Me” and learn that women have a problem being heard by men.

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Nope, not kidding. Sincerity is entirely subjective, and it doesn’t take a lot of imagination to think he might have perfectly valid opinions on a great many topics, and be utterly wrong about others. Who knows what goes on in his head? For that matter, who knows what happened during all these alleged instances? He knows, from his point of view, and his victims know from their point of view. We sitting here don’t know jack shit, but we can choose to believe (or not) one thing or another based upon our understanding of the evidence presented.

But I’m not interested in defending Bill Cosby, the man. You think fourteen accusations leveled at him are sufficient to try and convict him; that’s your own lookout. This is a situation where “innocent until proven guilty” doesn’t roll right off the tongue with ease, since the likelihood that fourteen women are all lying about Cosby for whatever reason is vanishingly small (even if I weren’t already inclined to believe individual claims like that–which I am–I don’t pretend that there’s a whole lot of gain to be made from false claims of rape, and never have), but still I am loath to pick up torch and pitchfork under any circumstances. Even a tiny chance is a chance, and a day in court is apparently the least-bad system we’ve engineered in centuries of trying to suss out the truth, even in cases of he-said-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-&-she-said.

But again, I am not defending Cosby. If he did it, he should be punished, and I leave it to better-qualified minds than mine to figure out if he did. But I still maintain that his art exists on a different plane, the same plane on which all art exists. The Cosby Show is still one of the best sitcoms of the 1980s. Our enjoyment of it will probably be colored by these allegations, often to the point where we can’t even bear to look at it anymore. But a sizable fraction of the all-time audience of that show may never realize that Cosby probably did these things. In that vacuum, the show stands as it did for us years ago, in that innocent time when many of us thought he was a good guy.

I’m not telling you that you should enjoy his work to the same degree you ever did (if you ever did at all). But our distaste for the man should extend solely to the man himself, and by extension to the hypocrisy he may have practiced by displaying himself as a smart and successful and compassionate guy in the public eye while having raped and assaulted and abused people who put their trust in him. Should the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences take back his Emmys? Or should they simply not invite him around anymore (particularly if he gets convicted)?

Keep in mind now I’m no longer talking about rape and rapists. After serving an eleven-month sentence for contempt of Congress, Dalton Trumbo could not get screenwriting work for a decade. In order to keep his family fed and housed, he wrote under pseudonyms, and sometimes sympathetic friends would act as “fronts,” putting their name on the byline of his scripts and splitting the money with him. During this period, he won two Oscars, one for Roman Holiday in 1953, and one for The Brave One in 1956. Since Roman Holiday was “fronted” by Ian McLellan Hunter, he (Hunter) collected the Oscar for that one. Not until 1993 was Trumbo posthumously awarded that Oscar, and not until 2011 did he receive full credit for the screenplay. For The Brave One, Trumbo used the pseudonym “Robert Rich,” and since nobody under that name existed to receive the award at the ceremony, the next morning a whole bunch of guys showed up at the Academy claiming to be the real “Robert Rich.” Trumbo eventually was awarded that Oscar the year before he died, in 1975.

One of the reasons why the blacklist eventually ended was because Trumbo won those Oscars for Best Screen Story when he was “officially” considered too evil to work, as a card-carrying Communist. No doubt several Academy members in Hollywood, who voted for those movies as having the best screen stories of their respective years, came to recoil in horror at the very idea that they voted for the work of a dirty pinko Communist without knowing it. It’s a pretty safe bet that those movies would not have won, had Trumbo’s name been attached to them at the time. Were those viewers deceived? In their ignorance, was their understanding of the artworks they were viewing sufficiently ill-informed as to render invalid their prior high opinions of the movies in question? Should Trumbo not have received those Oscars? What if, instead of a Communist, he was revealed as a rapist?

I don’t pretend to have an easy rule of thumb. I’d never bothered to read Ender’s Game, so I was never a fan of Orson Scott Card, so I didn’t have to wring my hands about whether or not to see the movie when it came out. It’s easy for me to avoid the movie on principle, since I have no idea what I’m missing. It’s harder for me to consider Chinatown or other movies by Roman Polanski. There’s a guy who was tried and convicted (and pleaded guilty, no less) for unlawful sex with a minor, and skipped town and country to avoid being locked up. I have no desire to line that guy’s pockets, nor help him in any way. Still, Chinatown is a hell of a work of art, and has much to teach budding filmmakers about that artform. Polanski’s sins as a human being don’t enter into the quality of his art any more than Trumbo’s Communism (and defiance of the legislature, which is what they nailed him for) inform the cinematic qualities of Roman Holiday and The Brave One.

That’s the distinction I have been trying, in my tiresome and long-winded way, to make.

You and I don’t always see eye to eye, but I’d like to think we argue with a degree of intellectual honesty. I just went on at some length about the differences between defending a man, and defending his art. In Cosby’s case, I’m not passionate about either. I haven’t really enjoyed his work since Fat Albert went off the air, and since I’ve never met the man, I’ve never had much of an opinion of him one way or another, except to raise an eyebrow when he seemed to go off on some judgmental rant about black men with loose pants or something.

Here’s someone I have met: Rebecca De Mornay. Worked with her once. Can’t stand her. Over the course of a long, three-month shoot she managed to alienate just about everyone involved, and made her 8-year-old costar cry (out of character) on more than one occasion. I really think she’s about the most awful person I’ve ever met. And yet my opinion of her as a person does not color my opinion of her work. I think she’s very talented, and I appreciate most of the work she’s done that I have seen. But I’ll be damned if I ever work with her again, or even stand in the same room.

Uh-oh. Look out: I’ve just given a woman a pass.

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Holy fucking shit, are you kidding me? Last I checked, the random woman you dislike for vague reasons, whose name was evidently pulled out of your ass, is NOT A FUCKING SERIAL RAPIST. How the fuck is that even comparable? It’s not. You’re comparing a RAPIST to a woman you worked with once and didn’t like much. Wow. Not to mention, women in general are considered to be “too much to handle” if they dare “act like men” and take charge and act like leaders, so I am going to take your claims that she was a terrible human (and still … not a rapist) with a grain of salt, thanks. Clearly your perspective is really fucking off. Besides which, she’s totally irrelevant to this discussion and the comparison is ridiculous. I can’t even with you anymore.

Uh-oh. Look out: I’ve just given a woman a pass.

And no, you did not just give a woman a pass. You called out a random, irrelevant woman you happened to work with once and disliked, in a discussion about whether or not we can separate the art from a a RAPIST. You didn’t give anyone a pass. In fact, you did the opposite. You dragged down a woman in a completely irrelevant discussion to make some shitty point in support of a rapist.

The fact that you think talking shit about a completely irrelevant woman and comparing her to a RAPIST as “giving her a pass” is deplorable and says a whole heck of a lot how you view women.

But keep on ‘splainnin’ to me how you are totally going to still enjoy the works of a rapist and why that’s okay, and then keep on ‘splainin’ to me how you dislike some women but still “respect their work” (backhanded compliment, much?!) and how that’s totally the same thing.

Honestly, truly, do you think you made a logical and rational argument here? Because if so I … wow.

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Man, it’s too easy to blow your gaskets. I’m sorry I haven’t had occasion to work with rapists, murderers, or whoever else you would feel ascends to the level of demon that Bill Cosby does. Whatever. Ignore the mention of admitted rapist Roman Polanski. Try and view the point with a view slightly less binary than is your comfort zone. The discussion I’m having concerns the separation of art and artist, not a defense of bad men, nor a comparison between probable rapists and an obnoxious woman.

If you can’t see it, I can’t help you.

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Oh, yes, heaven forbid I get annoyed at a man comparing a woman he dislikes to a fucking serial rapist. Don’t even with that tone trolling. You do realize we’re talking about a man who raped real, actual women? You better fucking BELIEVE i am tired of this dismissive bullshit coming from (mostly) men. My gasket blew a long fucking time ago. Yours should have blown, too, but clearly you are far more invested in defending the art of a serial rapist than you are of being concerned with the real, living, breathing human beings who were raped. Jesus. Look at how much time you’ve wasted defending the art of a serial rapist! And shitting on a random woman you worked with and happened to dislike. What a swell guy you are.

Heck, now that you’ve brought up Polanski, we’re talking about TWO rapists who raped real, actual woman (and underage girls). The fact that you think that HELPS your arguments is hysterical. Keep diggin’! Deeper, man, deeper! Do you need help? I have an extra shovel.

Ah, yes. You bring up two men who are rapists, and your only example of a woman is one you worked with at one point in the past and didn’t like much? ARE YOU KIDDING ME HERE? You have got to be fucking joking. This can’t be serious arguments

Stop with the condescending, patronizing ‘splainin’, because your arguments are ridiculous. It’s not me who needs help.

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