That’s precisely what I was trying to suggest. He got in bed long enough with the real racists to get the job done and now seems unhappy about the outcome. I think it points us in the direction of how dangerous these sorts of political machinations can be, especially when you start employing racism to get something done. Again, not to godwin this thread (although I’ve apparently already derailed it), but the conservative parties that aligned with you know who also thought they could control him as well.
Are you sure this is the right place for this conversation? It sounds an awful lot like “chat”. 
isn’t any comment “chat” in some sense?
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At the behest of the Westminster Government, which at the time was seen to be part of keeping the EU stable.
At the moment, I imagine that many European politicians feel the way about Johnson, Gove, Cameron and co. the way that Disraeli felt about Gladstone:
“If Mr. Gladstone fell into a pond that would be a catastrophe. But if someone were to pull him out, that would be a disaster.”
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When you try to delegitimize somebody’s vote, you don’t change his mind, only his willingness to talk about it.
The polling favored Remain because any other position was being characterized as ignorant and racist. But in the privacy of that polling booth, with a curtain between you and everyone else and anonymity ensured, they could say what they really wanted. Which they did.
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Given the attitude to women of many of the Leavers, I thought it was rather relevant.
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This explanation appears to have some truth in it. Before the vote, phone polls were leaning more towards remain than ones conducted on-line.. This suggests that a number of people were more comfortable ticking the “leave” box when they didn’t have to say it out loud to a researcher on the phone/.
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I think you’re deliberately ignoring what the proponents of Brexit actually said and did so you can paint aggressors as victims. Sure, some voters were merely stupid, rather than bigoted idiots. But those stupid people weren’t blind to a campaign demonizing certain immigrants as it’s central and fundamental plank. You should acknowledge the bigotry in the campaign and from the supporters before pointing out that the supporters don’t like people pointing it out. Sure people motivated by bigotry feel shame about it. That makes polling harder. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be ashamed - what they supported was absolutely shameful.
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Prosperous areas like Solihull and North Dorset voted Leave, as did the area in which Nissan is based. Leave tried to make people fearful of immigrants and non-white people and they were very successful at it. The economic evidence is that immigration has only the most marginal effects on wages, but Johnson was caught (by Salmond) lying about it. And nobody explained to the unemployed and the elderly that immigrants paying taxes actually raised the social fund, because it was assumed that any positive comments about immigration would increase the Leave vote.
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I just want to note that I didn’t say most of those things and will let someone reply who did.
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No such place. There are the United States, which out of respect we capitalize. You know, basic respect.
Not unlike how you capitalize ‘Squad Leader’.
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Right. Like I said the EU now has a big incentive to find another way. If the UK fractures over this then basically giving Scotland the UK’s spot, and NI just becomes part of an extent EU member nation is a pretty simple way to handle it. And the EU, in the short term at least, has an active interest in making this as hard on the UK as possible. Both as a deterant and to keep the economic fallout contained.
But long term it might not be so hot. It’s pretty putative on the UK, which could backfire politically. But it also kind of destabilizes Britain, and perhaps the British isles as a whole in a sort of frightening way. So you won’t see the US backing it anytime soon, given our connections to Britain. So I think it’s possible, but not necessarily likely. And more of a surprisingly good/practical idea than its ever really been.
I do think Scotland is gone if their vote happens. Almost certainly. And if Scotland goes everything goes really weird.
When you try to delegitimize somebody’s vote, you don’t change his mind, only his willingness to talk about it.
That’s pretty much half the battle. Thanks for the advice
The polling favored Remain because any other position was being characterized as ignorant and racist.
It helped that many ignorant racists held that position.
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Scotland having another referendum certainly will shake things up, unfortunately mostly for Scotland.
To join the EU one must be an independent state, have its own currency, have a central bank and have a good international credit rating with that bank. Even if Scotland did become independent it would have to fulfil the other criteria, which would take a long while. There’s also the chance of a veto from any of the other members. So Scotland may find itself outside the UK and outside the EU as well, which may not bode well.
But Nicola Sturgeon is to be holding talks with the EU, so we’ll have to wait and see how those go.
Yeah I realise its complicated but the EU has a lot of incentives to find a way to make it work if Scotland votes itself out of the UK. Which just seems the most likely result should they vote. The long process of re-joining the EU through traditional means with full EU support might be preferable to the Scottish to weathering the storm as part of the UK.
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This is irrelevant, however. The territory of Scotland is currently part of the EU. Scotland has devolved powers within the UK. The argument is over whether it has to leave as a result of a referendum in which another country within the UK decided to leave. This is a unique situation and will need a new approach.
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You are aware that the UK government including it’s recently resigned PM were one of the leading supporters of TTIP whereas other european governments were considering to end negotiations?
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And that it was the French who said it was dead in the water as far as the EU was concerned?
Our next PM, the American Boris Johnson, is going to be desperate to sign up for TTIP, in an effort to show he is making progress on new agreements.
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Ninja’d 
Seems like we just met one of those voters who were busy googleing the day before yesterday.
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Okay, but you’re talking about what people were told, and not, as I was, about what many of them also know. Many who voted Leave are suffering the effects of neoliberal policies that benefit others, and many of them basically know that, and who the culprits basically are. Brexit is of course a multifaceted issue, and not every vote for Leave was necessarily driven by entirely bad and/or misguided motivations.
