Brexit wins: Britain votes to exit the European Union

boing
667

You can talk bullshit all you like.[quote=“FFabian, post:647, topic:80366”]
The ever closer union thing was the intention for the EU the get go
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The Solemn Declaration on European Union was signed in 1983[quote=“FFabian, post:647, topic:80366”]
Don’t you elect your government? The government you voted for represents you in the EU. The MEP are elected.
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Sorry, but democracy once-removed isn’t good enough.[quote=“FFabian, post:647, topic:80366”]
TTIP was imposed on you by the EU when it was exactly the other way round
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TTIP may yet still go through the EU, we have to wait and see, meanwhile we’ve got rid of Cameron, one of the main proponents.
Job done.
@anon50609448
Here’s a brief explainer. I’ve linked it to start from the appropriate time.

This sums up the EU more accurately.[quote=“doop, post:660, topic:80366”]
British people had some sort of say over the governance of an entire continent
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Hardly.[quote=“doop, post:660, topic:80366”]
I would say that the last half-century has taught us that just because the USA shed blood over something, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
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Fair point. Let’s drop the USA as an example and pick a couple from this list then.

In finishing; the remain side was funded in a large part by Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley and fronted by the more right-wing faction of the Tory party.
Tony Blair supports it. Tony Benn opposed it.
Those little factoids should at least set off alarm bells to encourage the ‘remainers’ to at least dig a little deeper into the story they were being sold.

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668

the commission announced today that CETA will be not seen as mixed agreement and only the EP has to vote.

eta: link fix. sorry.

2nd eta: the wire copy without the fluff

669

The link seems to be broken. From what I can find, CETA seems on track for ratification with no objections from the EU.

670

I can’t get your link to work.

Didn’t Hollande say he was going to veto it? (how would that work if it’s only the EP that has to vote?)

671

I see also that Nicola Sturgeon has been denied talks with the EU.

672

sorry, I fixed the link (also @pixleshifter)

mixed agreements have to be accepted by the EP and the member states. but the commision believes the content affects only areas under the control of the EU alone - if the council votes unanimously against the pov of the commision CETA will be handled as a mixed agreement.

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673

Thanks. So essentially, the populace doesn’t get to turn it down as only the representatives and the EP need to agree to it.

674

But the EP is an elected body. The populace of member countries get their say in this as much as anyone gets a say in a representative democracy.

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675

essentially

(like the trade treaty between the independent UK and Japan will be negotiated by Her Majesty’s government and ratified by the parliament : P)

676

It’s not clear whether this vote requires a majority or unanimous agreement of all parties to go through. If it’s the former, then your one representative could easily be outvoted against the wishes of an entire country.

677

Just as your own representative in the UK parliament could be outvoted by the rest of the country. Just as your one representative on city council could be outvoted by the other areas of the city. The EP is exactly as democratic as any other representative democracy.

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678

like most EU votes a double majority in the council (most members and most of the population) and a qualified majority in the EP

679

As I pointed out upthread, when the majority of the electorate is voting for brexit, “FUCK YOU RACISTS” is unlikely to be a successful campaign message, regardless of how emotionally satisfying it may be,

680

Your parliamentary representative only represents an area, the city council an even smaller area. We’re talking entire nations here.

681

And you get your proportional share. Is your point that when a democracy exceeds a certain size it ceases to be democratic because individual voices become too small? The UK has a parliamentarian for about every 100,000 people. The EU for about every million people (and the UK has more than it’s fair share by population). Is that the problem?

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682

That, to be honest, is a problem IMO. I think it’s why America has state laws as well as federal. It’s also why the EU is experiencing such upheaval and why global governance would never work.

683

but Florida cannot ratify a free-trade treaty with the BRIC states, California not close it’s borders for New Yorkers and Texas does not set fishery quotas. and still my local governement is able to introduce metric shitloads of (more or less) stupid laws.

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684

TBH I’m not that clued up about State laws, but the way you state it sounds like they have a fair amount of autonomy, if only to introduce shitlaw.

685

Are you implying that individual EU member states don’t have their own rules as well? Look, there will always be tension over what affairs the EU/Federal Government has jurisdiction over as opposed to (member) states. What’s good for the US may not be good for the EU… perhaps more power should devolve to (member) states in one entity than in the other. However, in order to benefit from the Union, (member) states will have to cede authority over some of their internal affairs to the EU/United States Federal Government. And, seriously, the U.K. has far more control over some of its internal affairs than other member states while being in the Union, which is probably what has the rest of the EU so riled up.

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686

my local government is the German one. last time I checked not part of the US : )

the US state examples are based on the comments you made here regarding the suppression of UK’s right in the EU (I only slightly exaggerated your tone)