I apologize. To whom have I condescended? I did not mean to. I just wanted to say that I do not claim to be in any way good at what I’m advocating. I mean, nobody’s (currently) yelling at me. Equanimity and empathy come cheap in circumstances like that. So I guess it wasn’t a show of empathy or, indeed, actual empathy. Merely a somewhat clumsy disclaimer against charges of self-righteousness.
The significance of this phrase escapes me.
“When I was younger I was very much a fan of cutting remarks until I realized that honing that particular edge made nothing better and me worse.”
Here’s my personal opinion of the phrase “broflake”.
It’s a good general derogatory term for the MRAs, alt-right, and other conservative assholes who disregards the plight of the disenfranchised as trivial nonsense; but it does nothing to challenge the systematic institutions that were built by the patriarchal imperialists.
Ah. Well, no, nothing I said was meant as a cutting remark. Possibly I failed, either in anticipating a reaction or in empathy or just in English-ing. It would not be the first time and sadly, not the last. Well not unless I suddenly keel over dead, I guess.
But I stopped trying to do it to people that annoyed me—right wing political opponents, creationists and the like, mostly—and started trying to adopt niceness as praxis. Or, faling that, at least not-being-quite-as-big-of-a-jerk as praxis.
That is very invalidating. It is not a ‘baffling view’. You are baffled and I accpet that, but to put your comprension on the first pass as my work to do for you, as MY responsibility to not baffle you… it’s pretty white man behavior. Bordering on broflake.
Would you like me to explain? Then please consider asking without the dramatic ‘embafflement’ - it’s just so much PASSIVE aggression for someone who seems to hold himself as above aggression in communication.
I don’t get (or take from others) credit for my intent. YMMV.
I am not above aggression in communication. I try to be nice. That’s the extent of it. I think trying to be nice is a good thing and I recommend it to people. No implication of overweening virtue intended, and now, positively disclaimed: I claim no special virtue or unique insight. I even mocked it in one of my first posts by reducing my position to ‘being nice is nice.’
Also you appear to have mistaken my preference for niceness for a preference for spinelessness. If your criterion for offense is as low as you present it here—and I have cause to believe it is a rhetorical tactic—then I am afraid we cannot talk productively at all. Not after so spectacularly an uncharitable a reading of ‘baffling.’ All else laid aside, if you accept I am baffled, and if your view is what has baffled me, then it is, by definition, a baffling view. English is a second language for me, but even I know enough grammar to see this.
Thus, if this is what insults you I apologize for the insult and must leave you be, because I cannot promise I won’t do it again.
You do realized that suicides were a result of pressures and hardships cased by the patriarchal imperialistic culture put forth by capitalistic greed.
I suggest that you think long and hard about how the system were responsible for the prosperity the few and the suffering of the many.
I do. I agreed with @Melizmatic when they pointed it out, even. I am sure a large percentage of the suicides are in some way the product of hierarchical capitalism but… so what? We were never discussing the cause. We were only talking about the capacity of white men for emotional anguish. Suicides, especially so many suicides, are a very strong indication of the presence of emotional anguish whatever its cause might be.
And you suspect I have not thought about this? I would be interested to know the reason.
You’re thinking nationally; there are suicide nets installed in the factories of China.
A thousand times this.
I’m on the same wavelength as you. Intellectually, I recognize that that Christlike ideal is the thing to aspire to. To be pragmatic, however, I simply can’t take that on myself. This administration has been a constant source of stress, anxiety, outrage and alienation in my life (which is exactly what those who voted for Trump to “piss off liberals” intended), and while I can wrap my mind around the fact that, deep down, most of these people are just afraid, the most I can do is control my violent impulses when I see someone in a red hat. If one of them actually demonstrated any interest in understanding the world from my point of view, I might warm up quite a bit, that has literally never happened. It is, to a large extent, contrary to their philosophy.
At this stage, it’s much more realistic for us to display kindness toward each other and stop worrying about what they think. I want to devote my energy to making this easier for others to endure, rather than making futile appeals to those who are inflicting it on us. That, in itself, is a form of persuasion—the Grinch eventually gets lonely and decides to join the community—but for that to happen we need to make that community resilient to their attacks.
And that’s what I’m interested in. If they take away the ACA, is there any way we can support those who lose their healthcare? Can we make sure that Muslims feel welcome in their own country? Can we find ways to protect and support one other under conditions where the federal government is actively hostile to our values?
(and is there an introverted way for me to do this, because I’m not really a “go out and hug people” kind of guy)
Dude, WTF? I had no idea you weren’t a native English speaker. I think you can hold your own…
Hey, I’m a good Marxist lad[1] and I firmly believe that ‘from each according to their ability’ applies to this situation as well. Your country’s being torn down around you. Of course you want to yell at people. I’d be floored if you didn’t.
[1] Well, okay, I’m not, dialectical materialism is… silly. But I’m as left-wing as they come.
I am worried that my concerted efforts to be maximally polite in this thread have been counterproductive. I’m not saying that this is something anyone can do full time, let alone someone dealing with, say, a a complete failure of government. I’m saying even less that I can do this full time. Hell no.
I just think that niceness-as-praxis is a great community goal. Everyone gives as much as they can in the hope that it makes the world and everyone in it better. But you can’t do it all the time because, well, whatever our salient features might be, none of us are the Christ. 
And I objected not to someone losing their temper at some alleged adults with an outsized opinion of their own cleverness and shocking issues with entitlement and calling those broflakes. I objected purely to its use being recommended-in-general. I think, as I’ve said enough times to become tedious, it is counterproductive no matter how you measure it.
And that’s what I’m interested in. If they take away the ACA, is there any way we can support those who lose their healthcare?
I’m not in America and far too poor to help directly, but I fear it is difficult to do, especially directly. America has enormously inflated healthcare costs and covering them as a private individual is basically impossible. For life-saving issues a surprisingly effective thing, I’ve learned, is medical tourism. America has a lot of immigrants and a lot of those countries have a real healthcare system and as a result, private medicine has to actually compete and as a result is enormously cheaper. As a baseline, in my own country (which I am reluctant to reveal for personal reasons) I was able to secure an exam by world-class ophthalmologists for $50. This in a facility that’s equipped with every single relevant device (I’ve checked the relevant literature beforehand by abusing my university access) and staffed by extraordinarily competent people.
It is quite possible that it is cheaper to fly out to some other country in the world and do crucial and otherwise unaffordable medical procedures there than it is to do it in the 'States. I suspect some sort of network of friendly contacts in those countries could surmount the language barrier (which isn’t that tall: here at least, every educated person speaks English) and sort out the on-the-ground details
What individuals in the 'States could do then is help amortize the problems of not being around due to illness. The best support network model I’ve seen described is actually the church in middle-American parts of the country. Apparently the reason is so effective politically is that it represents the basic unit of community for a lot of people. Of course, how to get the same amount of cohesion as religion is a bit of a puzzle.
I suspect this is impossible. Or, I can’t imagine how it might be done, at any rate. What worked in my own neck of the woods (interesting times history strikes again) is not making the hounded and the oppressed feel welcome (because for far too many people they aren’t) but to offer a sort of… belligerent friendship? A “don’t worry neighbor, I got your back no matter what” signal. That might not make them feel welcome but it might just make them feel they belong. It’s worth a shot, at any rate.
My advice is of course, just that. Friendly advice. Gods only know if any of it is even slightly useful. But I absolutely respect your intention. Making a more welcoming and resilient community is always a good thing.
Is there any organization you could offer your money or time to, provided you have any to spare?
There are indeed. China’s a great showcases for the terrible anti-human excesses of capitalism.
But this is not relevant to the issue I was discussing at the time. I was using a fact as evidence of a position. That’s the extent of it. At no point did I suggest that my tiny post was an exhaustive disquisition on the topic of suicide.
Thank you! That’s very kind of you to say.
I think that you’re perhaps unaware that the reason you’re getting so much pushback from (mostly) women about this is because we have been socialized our whole lives to be “nice” no matter what. We’re told to “let him down easy”. We practice the “soft no”. Just saying “I’m not interested.” is rude and if we were just nicer when asking that guy to leave us alone then he’d listen! Niceness is expected of us on a regular basis, and “not-nice” is as simple as refusing any request, no matter how egregious.
We’ve been nice. It didn’t work. We’re tired of doing it with no benefit to ourselves.
That’s not what I mean by ‘niceness,’ however. I’d never advocate for anyone to falsify their preferences in such a manner. In what I call niceness and what I advocate a simple blunt ‘no’ is perfectly nice. Even saying ‘I dislike you intensely. Leave. Now’ is still nice, provided it is true. What you describe is not niceness, it’s submission and it is a wretched way to live.
What I’m against is the cultivation of cruelty, and the deliberate use of invectives and slurs, language meant to divide, exclude, and hurt. I maintain that sort of thing is of benefit to no one much like the examples of socialized-into-submission you give are, again, of benefit to no-one at all.
I’m sorry, but this all really just smacks to me of the politics of respectability. That people most victimized need to be the ones who are most polite, kind, and empathetic, while the people most brutal must be given the most leeway and amount of understanding.
Reminds me of a quote from a Grimes song, “I gave up being good/when you declared a state of war”!
would not ask you to not do so, would ask you to put your surprise at it aside in future, for the sake of conversation. Your experience of man is increased, and you may find that such a response to such a statement will become common to you if you make such to me/in conversation with me. I will follow your lead on compassion and understanding, as you are clearly ahead of so many in these estimable regards. Enjoy.
Agreed; it sounds great in theory, but in practice people that don’t even see certain others as actual human beings cannot be reasoned with, especially not by the people they’ve already dehumanized in their minds.
