Oh, I’m not saying Catalonia has any particular valid grounds for wanting to secede or otherwise. The merits of it are none of my affair.
Just pointing out that saying “the constitution doesn’t allow it” to people who think that the constitution shouldn’t apply to them is a bit of a non-starter. From their point of view - of course the constitution doesn’t allow it because Madrid doesn’t want them to secede.
It’s a Catch-22. If you can only secede if those who are opposed to you seceding allow it, then you can never secede.
At least not without significant violence - which I hope can be avoided here.
All the rhetoric about ‘illegal referendums’ and ‘illegitimate mandates’ serves to do is to justify and lay the groundwork for violent suppression.
As I say, fair enough - realpolitik says that Spain will not and cannot allow Catalonia to secede and will therefore take whatever steps they can to prevent it. At the end of the day whether they have legal power to do so doesn’t matter much. What matters is whether they can.
Equally as far as Catalonian separatists are concerned, it doesn’t matter whether it is legal or not. It matters that they can say that they have a mandate from their populace, yes. But what really matters is whether they can defy the might of the Spanish state. Realistically they can’t.
So what you have is in fact really all a massive publicity stunt teeing up either independence being granted or at least higher autonomy and resolution of those pesky financial arguments or massive repression by the Spanish state, leading to more support for independence in the future both in Catalonia and in the international community.
Kind of a win-win for the separatists, except for any who might end up in prison or dead during the ‘unpleasantness’. Since plenty of people over the years have shown they are prepared to risk death or imprisonment for themselves and others for political causes, I don’t think the signs are good here for a peaceful resolution.
And hey I think that indoctrination of modern Germans are kind of different from that of 1935 and the indoctrination of current US citizens to be a bit more relaxed than that of North Korea.
And I have plenty of Catalonian friends that are very much horrified by this.
At the end of the day, the separatists repersent about 48% of the vote. Big numbers, yes. “Clear mandate”, no. At least half of Catalonia is not on board with this. They may also not be onboard with the 155 and Rajoy and his gang, (most of my friends, also) but again, what we have is 2 groups of assholes deciding they represent “THE PEOPLE” and driving us toward a fucking idiotic conflict none of them have any clue about - the separatists because hey, if I play my cards right I can transform not-half into 100% and the central government because several reasons, starting with covering the huge corruption scandals that are right now entering the last legs of the court case with an almost sure veredict of “you all set up a system for bribes” with all the noise about defending the homeland.
Sick of this whole thing. SIck of “historical days”. Sick of people demanding I march on a flag or calling me fascist /terrorist if I dont do it. Sick of it all, to my bones. We are entering a fucking unformed nightmare because of hotheaded idiots on both camps.
I didn’t say otherwise. We still are all subject to various forms of indoctrination. We can recognize that and still think that there are very real differences between different forms. I don’t think we should necessarily imagine that all forms of indoctrination are evil, just recognize that they exist.
But I was talking specifically about Spain and Catalan. @Diegolm noted that for the past 20 years Catalan children have been indoctrinated, but isn’t there a kind of indoctrination happening in the Spanish education system as well, about Spain as a nation, Spanish identity, and even with regards to EU membership? At the end of the day, you’re still being indoctrinated to think a particular system is not only good, but natural and inevitable.
They have declared independence, not made any change to the Statute of Autonomy, which, by the way, was suspended and cut by Spanish Constitutional Court. Not anymore the Statute catalans voted under referendum. The referendum had a law and it was followed except for the ballot boxes seized by force by spanish police.
Sure, nobody should call facist to anybody for having a different opinion. To anyone using the argument “not enough votes to declare independence”, why not celebrate a referendum? Please, don’t tell me “it’s not legal”…
judging by the vote totals in the respective legislatures, repressing Catalonian independence seems to be more popular than declaring Catalonian independence.
And even worse, those 48% are very much disagreeing what they want to do with the independence. It is a very heterogeneous coalition that pushed through the referendum and now a bid for independence.
I would like to solve this issue by a referendum, on Catalonia only. with clearly stated numbers (“needs 2/3 for extra legitimacy”, etc) and clear conditions. And hell, in my personal case? I would even campaing on the idea that if it comes as a YES dont worry, Spain will not even prevent EU access.
But “it is not legal” is an appropiate question. By all means, our stupid politicians should have moved their asses to make it legal and defined and properly recognized. But the moment the Govern in Catalonia decides that Spanish law is optional and can be ignored, what the fuck do they expect? What government on Earth just says eh, I’ll just let that slide?
That Rajoy and company will now go for the worst possible response is a given. But come on. It is ridiculous to think that you can ignore the legal aspects of the conflict and then get all offended when legal consequences start falling down on the actors. If the “strife for independence” is so important, well, somebody is going to go to jail. Unless somebody has a way to respond in force. A unilateral declaration is, by definition, something the other side is not going to recognize.
Is that the path we want to see? Did at any point anybody from the separatist camp think what the fuck is going to happen after this? Or are they all very much wishing to see bloodshed as retroactive justification? What government in the universe would NOT answer an unilateral separation with law and law-enforcement?
The separatists AND the central goverment are all gambling with our lives and our futures for their stupid political goals. And all for fucking what? What is that incredibly bright future we can look forward? An independent Catalunya because less than half wants it? A Cataluña that is part of Spain no matter what and no matter the cost?
At this point I’m more than convinced that both sides will look with glee at the first real outburst of violence. The PP gets the “FUCK THE CATALONIANS” vote elsewhere, the Govern gets martyrs.
The rest of us gets to endure whatever it comes and to endure them in charge.
Democracy prevails over any Law. Law is just what elected politicians write in a paper. Spanish politicians refused to allow a referendum and to talk about it, so Catalan politicians wrote a Transition Law and a Referendum Law that permitted the celebration of a referendum. The referendum was legal under Catalan Law and illegal under Spanish Law. Spanish politicians keep telling it’s illegal because they don’t want to say the truth: “We don’t want it and we won’t talk about it”.
Again: if it’s a matter of votes, why not celebrate a legal (under Spanish Law) independence referendum and we’ll find out how many are against and for?
Every mature democracy started because mature citizens decided to organize themselves democratically and then create laws that they’d agree to follow. They didn’t suddenly find Law written in a stone.
Thats a very interesting idea. Now, the logical outcome of that idea is that right now half of Catalonia doesnt recognize the law coming from those politicians writing in a paper that they are now a country.
Care to tell me what do you think should the newly Republic authorities do with those people that refuse to follow its new laws? Just tell them its ok and fine and not really something to bother? If I live in Barcelona and refuse to acknowlege, say, the authority of the new Republic to tax me, is ok and I can expect no legal repercussions because hey, democratically speaking, not even half of the population recognize it?
If we were all mature individuals we would solve this democratically - by drafting and implementing the law frameworks that would allow us to actually have a clear idea of what the mandate is.
As no side has any interest whatsoever in that, because on one hand the “unity of Spain” is not something to discuss according to the right and on the other side the “people have spoken” in Catalonia even if we have to define people as not even one in 2 so whatever that side writes is “democratic”…
