My Household God is my magnificent cheeseplant, which is of mighty proportions, and evicts evil spirits from the house for me. In return, I give it regular sacrifices of cold black tea and the occasional repotting. We get on fine, and haven’t started any wars or pogroms that I know of.
6 Likes
Well, The term Atheism really only means those that don’t believe in gods. So I believe there are a fair amount of people out there that are “Spiritual” and have some supernatural beliefs that call themselves atheists and agnostics.
That is why when the Mormons and Witnesses come by I tell them, “I don’t believe in the supernatural.”
4 Likes
They’re discussing a movie character. The character is based on a god in an Earth religion which was then further developed in the comics as a citizen of another world. The reality of the character has nothing to do with actual gods or aliens (if there are any) but rather established literary norms about these models.
Wait, now you’re even smarter than people of reason?
1 Like
My point was not anything about being smart, it was that such discussions get bogged down by the various groups refusal to define their terms (or even recognize that they are talking past each other about different things) precisely because the “semantic baggage” I referred to is the very norms which they rely on to have the discussion, without having examined first. I was joking about “people of reason” because many atheists tend to be quite eager to explain how all areas of their lives are based upon carefully considered rationality.
1 Like
And then some people simply don’t have a “hole”, but were convinced through years of brainwashing that they must have a hole, and are sold a narrative to explain how to fix the hole they never actually had.
Then when they grow up, they realize they’ve been lied to their whole lives about the hole. They figure out that their role models and teachers were lied to about the hole, and have passed the lie along.
They realized that the only reason the narrative they’ve been taught seems reasonable is because it’s the narrative the people directly around them grew up with. And if they were born somewhere else, they would have been taught a different lie about the hole.
They feel angry, and betrayed. They feel like they’re the target of some absurd conspiracy. They feel like all the hole people will never be happy until they decide to take an awl and bore a hole in you so they can fill it with their narrative. Or sometimes it just feels like they’re completely delusional and the frustration of hearing them say “oh, you’re so sad, you just haven’t found and filled your hole with the thing I want you to fill it with yet.” gets to be so much that you want to scream: “I’m not messed up. I’m just fine without having or filling any hole.”
/end rant
6 Likes
As a Buddhist, I believe in the First Noble Truth, that existence is inherently unsatisfactory in how we experience it, because that matches my life experience. That says little about “existence” and more about people. So you don’t sense anything disatisfactory, ever, about your life? You don’t ever get depressed or question the seeming meaningless of it all or experience a chronic pain and despair (or lose a friend or family member and feel sad)? You truly are exceptional.
The “hole” is something we experience as rational beings trying to make sense of our experience of the world, how everything is transitory (not just bad things but good things) but we try to cling to them or avert them because we either want them to continue or don’t accept the experience at all.
7 Likes
Would you like one of my donuts?
6 Likes
I overgeneralized.
I don’t have a “god-shaped hole” whatever the hell that means. Yes of course I’ve experienced dissatisfaction in my life. Usually due to factors external to myself. For instance I spend several hours a day not doing anything I like, nor doing my job, because I’m stuck in traffic. This isn’t a hole in me. It’s a problem with the world external to me. I may be able to change my attitude, and attempt such things as enjoying the scenery, or listening to the radio.
Another example, I used to have a lot of problems with depression. But with drugs and cognitive behavioral therapy for adjusting my own attitudes, perceptions, and reactions to emotions, I’ve learned how to make the pain of depression manageable and less emotionally salient. Again, not a “hole” in me needing to be filled, but rather more of a loose screw that needed a little tightening.
I learned early on as a child of the problem of solipsism. My solution to the dilemma? Fucking enjoy the world. You can’t tell if it’s all in your head, but you’ll have an easier time and be happier if you at least treat the external world as if it exists.
Yes I have lost loved ones. But the pain fades, and I remember them in their lives as best I can. They have not left gaping holes in my life, no matter how much I love them. They are as transitive as anyone else on the planet, and if you don’t move on, you’re torturing yourself. So I have moved on.
If we’re treating the hole as motivating force? I’m not sure what mine is. I am in an enviable position of not particularly wanting to do anything with my life. My needs are satisfied, my ambitions are few, and my goals are achievable. I could probably happily live exactly as I am for another 50 years, I’ve already lived this way for the past 10 or so. Why would I screw up a satisfactory arrangement?
ETA: The “god shaped hole” line is personally quite galling to me. I have never felt the need for a deity. I spent a lot of time in church, but never “felt god’s love”, just interacted with other humans. After many years being told that I must be mistaken about some strange need for approval from an imaginary friend, I decided most of those people were either well-meaning weirdos, or trying to con me into something. Eventually when it came time to be baptized I refused because I couldn’t honestly say “the spirit of the lord filled me”. I was filled with incredulity and doubt instead. I was much happier when I left and stopped trying to cram religious ideology into my life. And I became even happier when I stopped tolerating other people’s attempts to cram their religious ideology into my life.
4 Likes
I don’t think of it as a “god shaped hole.” I missed a line mentioning that.
I came to the Dharma because I felt an inherent lack in my experience of the world and then looked for solutions to it. I also did 1 1/2 years of therapy, got divorced, eventually married again, etc.
I just think that there is truth in the idea that people sense the lack of inherent fulfillment or meaning in their lives and try to fill this gap, acknowledged or not, with some thing (which actually doesn’t help). I think classical Stoicism is also a workable solution for those not interested in Buddhism. 
I am a functional atheist though. I don’t go looking for some mythical “other” being to fill my needs.
Update: It says “gaping” hole above in the comic.
4 Likes
I would as long as it isn’t jelly filled. I hate those.
5 Likes
There are times I have described myself as “a person-shaped hole in the universe”. I am not sure if it’s the same thing!
3 Likes
Can I get a pita and hummus instead? I’m trying to cut out refined sugars 
1 Like
Me too. And you know what I discovered that feels really fucking good? Charity.
As a kid in scouts it was always a drag to have to do things like 2nd garbage sweep (the one after you’ve already cleaned up your own garbage), or trail-scaping, or rebuilding a switchback, or volunteering with the old people in the food pantry.
But these days, now that I’m more mature (but still practically a child of course), every time I see a chance to help a stranger out, like giving someone a ride, or offering a meal, or a blanket, or looking up the locations of shelters/the Y/whatever for someone, it feels like I’m reaffirming my humanity. And it feels fucking amazing, even if I’m doing it for the selfish reason that it feels good to try and help someone in need.
These days I can’t really volunteer for the pantry due to my reversed schedule. But maybe a shelter needs someone around to keep an eye on the door at night or something. I could easily enough fill in from 2AM to 5AM. I think I’ll call around this week and see if any place can use my help after I get off work.
8 Likes
There are people who devote their lives to football. Kicking a friggin ball around. People get their teams logo engraved on their tombstones.
Life is Short. Full of Stuff.
I used to be a Christian Mocker. But nowadays, I see people just want stuff to make their lives purposeful. Football, Star Wars, Smartphones, Celebrity Apprentice. Religion.
And as far as picking a pointless thing to devote your life to, Christianity ain’t bad. It’s social, it gives you a moral compass, its got some nice songs to sing.
It doesn’t have to be “right”. It doesn’t have to be real.
You could do alot worse.
Meh. IMHO.
1 Like
I have a hole-shaped god.
6 Likes
As long as they follow their rules and keep it in the closet/room/inner-chamber.
Morality is inherent in the species (except for psychopaths, but they’re actually quite rare). Divine command morality often countermands natural moral impulses, instead setting up a long list of pointless rules, breaking any of which is just as bad as breaking ones like murder and rape. This is on purpose. It sets up a cycle of guilt (emotional injury) where the church’s cleansing judgement, condemnation and finally forgiveness is the emotional balm. They then turn you out onto the streets calling out “be sure not to do that thing you really like that harms nobody!” and when you inevitably do it, they’ll be waiting for you to come crawling back for forgiveness. Rinse, repeat. It’s an abusive relationship dynamic if you ask me.
Morality is derived from empathy. Your moral compass comes built in. What christianity offers is a moral monarch who picks and chooses for you, stunting your moral growth, and enforcing a mentality that all humans are basically wretched evil.
IMHO.
(seriously, I don’t want to attack you personally, but I just don’t understand why people keep talking as if christianity offers morality so much as a system of emotional codependence. Why take the church’s moral compass when we all have perfectly functional ones just from being human beings?)
13 Likes
Where else can I learn that doctors who perform abortions deserve to die, as do homosexuals, and that women should shut up and do what a man says?
Yeah, it’s great.
8 Likes
Nah. You construct your personal set of morals, and many folk cheerfully construct a very minimal set of rules for themselves. Morals are a Social construct.
Religion is not the sole source of social morality. But is a source.
2 Likes
Ahh well. You hate then.
You know full well that is not the way most Christians think, but you can simplify it down, and construct a narrative, and become the thing you accuse Christians of being.
1 Like
