CHP patrolman videoed beating homeless black woman by roadside

You think that, if you make every cop feel like they’re in a war zone and every civilian is secretly ready to rise up and attack them, then they’ll sheepishly back down and start behaving? I think it’s a lot more likely that they’ll start acting like occupying soldiers: traveling in packs with automatic weapons and hair triggers. And that means more innocent victims, which means more angry civilians, which means itchier trigger fingers for the cops, which means etc etc etc.

Japhroaig is right. Nothing has ever been solved by a cycle of violent revenge, not unless you’ve got the mass will and firepower for a full-on revolution, and revolutions are awful, brutal things even when they succeed. “KILL THE PIGS” sounds great, feels right, hell, they might even deserve it. Nothing can beat that feeling of communal catharsis and righteousness and empowerment…at least until the pigs take their turn again. Real, peaceful change is slow, grinding, exhausting, often hopeless-feeling. But it’s the best chance we’ve got.

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I think they already do. There’s a distinct “us vs. them” mentality where every blocked door (which may just have a crib behind it) needs to be breached tactically with flashbang grenades etc… Every old homeless minority lady needs to have the shit beaten out of her rather than being compassionately helped. They’re fucking trained to believe it. I don’t in any way shape or form think they’ll sheepishly back down if they believe this. Make it a reality and that’s when things will change.

I don’t think you’re going to effect change by appealing to their good side, or by politely requesting that they be compassionate. It would be ideal if people changed out of wisdom because it was the right thing to do. Sadly, we have a group of people charged explicitly with the duty of doing the right thing, who consistently prove to be some of the lowest scum around. They will change only when it hurts them not to change and no sooner. I don’t care if it’s physical pain, financial pain, or whatever, but the pain needs to be brought. Wishing for light, and goodness, and magical fairy dust is just that, wishing. Hollow, empty, and ultimately fruitless.

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It’s not about appealing to the cops’ good side. It’s about appealing to the good side of the people who sign the cops’ paychecks, give them their orders, hire and fire them–and of the people who vote those people into office. It worked for King, it worked for Ghandi, it worked for Mandela. It doesn’t work quickly, it doesn’t work perfectly. But it’s the only thing that ever has worked.

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Untrue.

There are numerous examples of armed popular uprisings that resulted in the overthrow of a regime etc…

I agree that the best approach is unfortunately the slow social evolution approach where people learn that this simply isn’t tolerable, and don’t tolerate it. Unfortunately that does little for the people who will be beaten or killed in the decades or centuries until such a glorious social utopia is reached.

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We give King credit for the success of the civil rights movement because he’s safe, but the movement wouldn’t have succeeded without Malcolm X, Huey Newton, and Bobby Seale.

We give Ghandi credit for the independence of India because he’s safe, but the movement wouldn’t have succeeded without Bhagat Singh and Subhas Chandra Bose.

In part we give the credit entirely to the leaders of the nonviolent parts of the movement because their approach is more palatable, we like to tell ourselves that love conquers all. In part though it’s because we don’t want the idea to get out that oppressors don’t tend to give up unless their safety is threatened; that when mass nonviolent movements are effective it is often because there is also a small violent movement, and those in power realize that if they mess this up, the hundreds of thousands or millions who are currently in the nonviolent part of the movement might get angry enough to join the tens or hundreds in the violent part.

Diversity of tactics - that’s often what it takes. Just because we only name schools and parks after the nonviolent leaders, doesn’t mean they would have gotten results without the ones willing to fight and die.

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No. Even if there is no accountability. No.

If there is no accountability, then organize and create some. I don’t wink at violence.

Malcolm X, Huey Newton, and Bobby Seale weren’t fighting for Civil Rights - they was fighting for Black Nationalism.

The central tenet of Black Nationalism is that peaceful coexistence between the races is impossible, and that blacks and whites must therefor live completely separate from each other and have nothing to do with each other. If that somehow doesn’t sound completely insane to you, take a look at how well that sort of thing is working between the Israelis and the Palestineans.

Please also note that all three men named above underwent drastic and sweeping changes of philosophy as time went by. The Black Panthers started out as Black Nationalists, then became Maoists, then cycled through a variety of other extreme leftist philosophies, and finally ended up as an anti-zionist movement. Talk about an identity crisis!

Malcolm X, of course, famously made the Hajj to Mecca and had a personal revelation, coming to realize that the so called “Nation of Islam” had little to do with actual Muslim faith, and consequently abandoning them and their cause of violence entirely - an act which shortly thereafter resulted in his assassination by the very people he once believed to be his closest family and staunchest allies.

One finds similar flaws in the efforts of Singh and Bose, but I feel I’ve made my point and need not go into further detail on their behalfs.

The very “palatability” you dismiss in the efforts of King and Gandhi is, in actual fact, the key to the success of their respective movements. When a minority is struggling for a cause, they very badly need the support of the majority population to achieve lasting change - and even the most sympathetic of potential outside allies become hesitant to support your cause if you resort to killing people.

Violence polarizes people. You may attract radical extremists to your cause with violence, but you repel moderates. You may believe acts of violence demonstrate the severity of the injustices being heaped upon you by others, but all it shows is that you are willing to stoop to their level and lower. You may believe violence will focus a discussion and force vital discourse, but all it does is muddy things, deflating your arguments and turning the vast majority of people against you.

People respond favorably to stoicism, not brutishness. When Gandhi went on his hunger strikes, they only had an effect because people admired and respected him - and not just his own supporters and fellow countrymen, but even his so called “enemies” and the people of the United Kingdom and the Western World.

But if instead, Gandhi had been known for being a violent, militant extremist? A hunger strike would be laughable - the world would be glad of him starving himself, feeling that one less violent maniac in the world would be the best possible outcome! A thorn in their side that removes itself from the equation? Who wouldn’t like that?

A person’s cause is only as strong as their willingness to suffer for it. Killing for a cause is easy. Dying for it, without striking back? Unimaginably harder, and of unimaginably greater effect.

If you take up arms for a cause, it has to be to engage in warfare - to achieve total and complete victory, and to forcibly impose your will to exact change, despite the wishes of the population at large. And even in ideal conditions, this comes with grave inherent costs - both in terms of human life, but also in terms of instability, unpredictability, and effective success.

Violent revolution condemns countless innocents to die and suffer for your cause without anyone asking their permission. There is almost never adequate justification to allow a person to decide such things morally.

Even beyond that concern, countless violent revolutions have succeeded only to make matters worse.

For every American Revolution in history, there are a dozen French Revolutions, explosions of passionate violence and destruction which achieve nothing but destabilizing regions for generations to come and paving the way for even worse abuses of power and popular sentiment. The Bourbon Kings were awful, no one contests that, but at least they didn’t plunge the whole of Europe into decades of constant warfare under a tyrannical madman like Napoleon!

And even the American Revolution nearly destroyed the colonies financially, crippling the economy for decades to come, and directly setting the stage for the War of 1812. Not to mention that it very nearly failed countless times over its duration, and was ultimately won not chiefly by strength of arms or popularity of cause, but by staggeringly unbelievable good luck and shocking incompetance on the British side of the equation.

So not only is violent revolution morally bankrupt in all but the rarest and most dire of situations, but it’s also very like to fail, and even more likely to backfire and make matters worse even when it “succeeds”.

No, I’m sorry, if you think violence is the answer, you are blinded by your rage and you betray any cause you seek to support.

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‘‘The right of a nation to kill a tyrant, in cases of necessity, can no more be doubted, than to hang a robber, or kill a flea. But killing one tyrant only makes way for worse, unless the people have sense, spirit and honesty enough to establish and support a constitution guarded at all points against the tyranny of the one, the few, and the many. Let it be the study, therefore, of lawgivers and philosophers, to enlighten the people’s understandings and improve their morals, by good and general education; to enable them to comprehend the scheme of government, and to know upon what points their liberties depend; to dissipate those vulgar prejudices and popular superstitions that oppose themselves to good government; and to teach them that obedience to the laws is as indispensable in them as in lords and kings.’’

–John Adams

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What? You don’t believe two wrongs make a right? You refuse to answer violence with violence? That makes you as bad as them! Worse even! I’ll kill you!

/sarcasm

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I’d say Sheriff Joe in AZ is a fine example where there’s tons of dirt on him in the press, but because his office prefers to target undocumented immigrants, the FBI can’t find sufficient evidence of criminal wrong doing to throw the corrupt a-hole into one of his own tent camps. Civil rights violations end up in civil court and the department, should they lose such a case, only loses money. Somebody else’s money.

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Unfortunately the violent faction plays the important role of in our example the black separatist/nationalist bad cop which makes the uncomfortable concessions to the reasonable MLK who can disown and differentiate themselves from the violent faction much more palatable. Without a worse alternative, sometimes even just the threat of violence or loss of privelages or personal wealth or position the power structure remains comfortable and there is no pressure to make upsetting changes, even for that sweet reasonable MLK or that weird and not just a little pedo/incest-suspicious but non-violent to the occupiers Ghandi

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True, but to be fair, the US is quite good at that whole tyrannical warfare business (and it is a business).

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New hypothesis: the virus from 28 Days Later that causes zombie-like mindless violence is sweeping the world, but affecting cops first.

Potential counterexample: Irish independence on the Crown.

If the occupant/ruler/adversary behaves in a way that makes him widely disliked in the whole area, then force, even lethal, aimed against him tends to be viewed favorably by the locals.

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In situations like this I always like to go over to Policeone.com and read the comments of actual police officers:

Trigger warning: Normal people will be pissed off and depressed.

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@GregJackP: I am confident that when this video is broken down frame for frame that it will support the CHP officer’s use of force. It almost always works out that way. That’s why I’m constantly saying that we should wait and see how the entire investigation plays out before making judgments against another LEO.

[emphasis mine]

Yeah, funny about that, isn’t it.

Citing Ireland of all places as a counter-example seems pretty strange to me, given that fighting and murdering was carried out by both sides on and off for most of a century, and ultimately nothing of consequence was achieved by it.

It’s true that things like the Long Kesh Hunger Strikes garnered a lot of sympathy for figures like Bobby Sands and company, but that was hardly the result of Irish terrorism and armed resistance. Just because the UK shot themselves in the foot with an absurd hardline stance in how they chose to handle things doesn’t mean the Irish violence itself was effective or justified.

People sympathized with Bobby Sands because he was being cruelly mistreated, not because he was part of the IRA. He got elected to Parliament while locked away in The H Blocks not for blowing up churches or executing Protestants in the street, but for demanding the internationally agreed upon treatment that was legally due to him and his fellows, and for enduring unimaginable brutality with stoic determination.

In other words, people’s sympathy was for Sands - not for the IRA.

People respected his willingness to suffer for his cause, not his willingness to kill for it - which, to my knowledge, he never did. He might even have succeeded to a greater degree in his protest if a rash of assassinations on both sides of the conflict hadn’t muddled the situation and brought the actual discourse the strike spawned to a political standstill.

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One penalty should be the immediate release (without prejudice, as they say in court) of the “suspect(s)” involved. Even if they were caught red-handed, they get a pass on whatever charges were going to be filed. Period.

If someone is trying to kill you, is it “violent revenge” to try to kill them back? We’re not talking about revenge, we’re talking about self-defense. And if you want to make the argument that “Nothing has ever been solved by self-defense,” well, you’ve got a lot of historical precedent to explain.

Police violence isn’t some mild civil disagreement where we just need all the parties to settle down, stop with all the anger, and talk reasonably. It is an armed conflict, in which one side (poor, minority, and otherwise marginalized people) is suffering continuously high casualties. Like, right now people are dying because of this conflict. And tomorrow, another will die.

You can tell me that fighting back will have dire consequences, and believe me, I can see how it’s dangerous, how it could go wrong if done too soon, too extremely, or with not enough force to back it up. But what alternative is there? You want us to vote for change? Don’t make me laugh. Sign some petitions? Start a blog campaign, have some protest marches, get arrested Ghandi-style? Theses things have been tried, again and again and again and they’re not working. The violence, the killing continues.

Maybe the “be peaceful” route sounds appealing to you because it’s safer, more comfortable, and less morally ambiguous than actually for real facing up to the violence and making it actually for real stop. If we want an actual end to the killing, there are no good options other than getting militant. I realize the contradiction there, but there is no pure path. Insisting that we confine ourselves to the same hopeless traditions of dissent that have failed us for the past 40 years is insisting that the killing continue. And that’s a far greater violence than self-defense.

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