Christianity continues decline in America

[anon61221983]

Sure, because the only reason violence exists is because of religion… not a single atheists has every harmed another… /s

Until we come to terms with the idea that there are far more factors involved than “superstition” at play here, we’re going to keep having the same problems with bigotry, violence, and oppression. There is no simple “if only people would all be just like me, the world would be better” answer here. It’s hard work and learning to live in a diverse world that will be a far better tactic than just dismissing everyone not like you.

[Turnips]

Bring in some bad writers and it drags the entire franchise down. Every time.

[anon52120741]

@anon61221983

I still don’t think so. Again, I think they are the violent, vocal minority.

While of course all, or even most, Christians are not as bad as the worst of the minority, their existence and the attention and support that vocal, hateful minority receives from the media, the GOP, and the Supreme court does mainstream their views and has over many decades entrenched versions of those beliefs as “part of Christianity”.

A lot of people I know who are Christians and NOT awful will say things like “I’m a Christian, but I don’t agree with the stuff about gay people being bad” or “I’m a Christian, but I believe in a woman’s right to choose”. They say this because they themselves have repeatedly been told that those beliefs are core parts of Christianity by their own communities.

They accept that this stuff is a core part of Christianity and feel their personal beliefs of accepting LGTBQ+ people, or supporting women’s rights are the ones that diverge from the standard beliefs.

Of course, it is the beliefs of the radical minority that are actually out of step with the teachings of Christ (though totally in step with the old testament - that thing is a shit show of hate, racism, genocide and misogyny - which enables the radicals). They have been very successful in moving the needle so that all the Christians that I associate with feel like they, or the progressive church they choose to go to, are out of step with the mainstream.

[anon3894935]

I never claimed that without religion violence and hatred wouldn’t exist, but religion, and Christianity in particular, has played a huge role in discouraging critical thinking. Religion has always been used as a convenient excuse to get people not to think about the horrors they commit- if they believe that Earth exists for them to exploit, or that they’re God’s special chosen ones, or that God himself says that these people or this behavior is evil, it ends the discussion as far as they’re concerned. It prevents self-reflection and positive change. The world wouldn’t be perfect without religion by any means, but if you can’t see how religion has played a huge part in almost every injustice to individuals, societies or the planet over the past several centuries (and continues to do so now), then I think you need to look again.

[cannibalpeas]

@anon52120741

their existence and the attention and support that vocal, hateful minority receives from the media, the GOP, and the Supreme court does mainstream their views and has over many decades entrenched versions of those beliefs as “part of Christianity”. (emphasis mine)

Their silence is deafening.

[anon61221983]

@anon52120741

A lot of people I know who are Christians

How about we not confuse our personal experiences with Christians with ALL christians, though.

The focus should be on systems of power, and not the specific expression of it.

@anon3894935

Christianity in particular, has played a huge role in discouraging critical thinking.

Except for the centuries where people very much developed what we think of as modern scientific thinking and were deeply religious? The split is relatively late in coming in fact. The goal of many of the early people who built the modern scientific world-view in Europe were very much looking to “describe gods creation” rather than looking to prove that god did not exist.

@anon3894935

Religion has always been used as a convenient excuse to get people not to think about the horrors they commit

So has communism, race “science”, the “binary” of gender, class structures, etc, etc. Of course religion can be used in an oppression manner (which is not something I disupted, but since I always get charged with that BS, I WILL refute it) - so can almost any other ideology. And you’re ignoring the many historical instances where religion was employed for liberation as well. It’s a set of tools and social structures that can be both oppressive or liberatory, depending on how it’s employed.

Sorry, the world is just not as black and white as all that. I will push back against that as long as their is breath in my body.

[ETA]

@anon3894935

but if you can’t see how religion has played a huge part in almost every injustice to individuals, societies or the planet over the past several centuries (and continues to do so now), then I think you need to look again.

There are myriad reasons for injustice, that don’t just boil down to a belief in “superstition”. You dismissing me out of hand because I’m saying something you don’t like wont’ change that.

[anon52120741]

@anon61221983

How about we not confuse our personal experiences with Christians with ALL christians, though.

Not confused at all - very clearly stating my personal anecdotal experience as part of this discussion. If you feel I could have expressed it in another way I would love the feedback. Otherwise it sounds like you are just telling me to shut up

[killick]

I left the RC Church because I could not longer believe in gods. It all just seemed so illogical and improbable. I’m supposed to believe there’s a god who loves me, and there’s this evil god He also created that apparently god left running around to screw with me, and if the evil god trips me up, I’ll have an eternity in excruciating torment. That doesn’t sound like love. That sounds like something Sid from Toy Story would get joy out of doing. This omnipotent god could have made the world work any way. So he made things like pizza, beer, and fried chicken taste great AND that will kill you if you enjoy it “too much.” Then they tell me if I question this “loving” god, that I’m being arrogant and I’m being led astray by this evil god that apparently is still running loose. God’s ways are mysterious-- we can never comprehend them, I was assured. I couldn’t be bothered to make the effort to believe anymore. The hardest part was recognizing that when I died, my consciousness would cease. But this has been easier to live with than the constant fear of going to eternal hell, so I call that a win. I’m not so much an ex-Christian as an ex-Theist.

[anon61221983]

I think that’s a general categorical error people make - assuming that their personal experiences are the universal truth… If you’re making a judgement about all religious people on that, I think it’s missing the larger picture.

@anon52120741

They have been very successful in moving the needle so that all the Christians that I associate with feel like they

This, for example. Of course whoever you know (or I know, etc) aren’t representative of the majority of people. A better set of data would be looking at surveys and the like (as imperfect as they are a metric).

[CarlMud]

@beschizza

What are the reasons people are quitting?

As a belief, it’s unbelievable.

As a moral standard, it’s usually pretty decent in theory (“don’t be an asshole” paraphrased), but you can practice good morality without needing Christian doctrine.

I’m no longer a Christian but I still believe in being decent to other human beings. And you can find non-Christians who are more Christian in practice than self-proclaimed Christian fundamentalists. Conservative Christians have completely merged god, guns, and falsely patriotic paranoid conspiracy theory persecution complexes.

[anon52120741]

@anon61221983

This, for example. Of course whoever you know (or I know, etc) aren’t representative of the majority of people. A better set of data would be looking at surveys and the like (as imperfect as they are a metric).

Well, I am not going to argue about this, but it seems a very high standard for participating in an internet forum.

[anon3894935]

@anon61221983

Except for the centuries where people very much developed what we think of as modern scientific thinking and were deeply religious?

I would argue that they developed it in spite of their religion rather than because of it. If “deeply religious” is the default because anything else is punished, what else could science have emerged from? But yes, point taken. Religion can be used for positive means. I’m just of the opinion that this happens so rarely compared to its use for negative goals that we’d be better off without it. Hypothetically, a gun could be used for something positive, but I still would rather society just stopped using them.

@anon61221983

There are myriad reasons for injustice, that don’t just boil down to a belief in “superstition”. You dismissing me out of hand because I’m saying something you don’t like wont’ change that.

Again with the strawman. Like I said, I never claimed that superstition is the only cause of the world’s problems, just that it’s played a disproportionately large part in them. It’s admittedly a matter of opinion. I could waste hours backing it up with evidence from history and current events, but I assume you’re already well aware of that and have reached a different conclusion based on the same or similar knowledge.

[anon61221983]

@anon3894935

I would argue that they developed it in spite of their religion rather than because of it.

Sure, if you ignore the voices of people who talk about their actions in working for liberation entirely. People like Bayard Rustin, Dr. King, Malcolm X, John Brown, Nat Turner, etc, etc, were very much informed by their faith. So were lots of people who were secular minded.

@anon3894935

I’m just of the opinion that this happens so rarely compared to its use for negative goals that we’d be better off without it.

I don’t know if that’s something we can even approach as a question. Just take US history - was the religion of the enslavers more powerful than the religion of the enslaved? At the end of the day, the religion of the enslaved won out in the civil war (while the former enslavers won the peace), and that still is part of the struggle today. But if the enslavers won out in the peace, they are not the last word on that, or even the majority. And they’ve been boosted by quite a bit of secular help such as eugenics, a “scientific” field that shapes far too many peoples understanding of what “race” is and how it functions in the world.

@anon3894935

Hypothetically, a gun could be used for something positive

Apples and oranges. Not the same thing - closer would be a debate over communism, and whether or not the crimes of Stalin and Mao completely negate the liberatory arguments Marx was attempting to make.

@anon3894935

I never claimed that superstition is the only cause of the world’s problems

No, you just smugly put yourself into the superior position of people whose ideas you don’t like. The reality is that religion is a pretty complicated thing and not everyone who is of faith beliefs in what you dub as “superstition”.

@anon3894935

It’s admittedly a matter of opinion.

If you’d said you don’t like people imposing their religious values on you through the political system, then I’m in full agreement with that. THAT is oppression. I feel the same about neo-liberal economic policies that privilege corporations over us as individuals. The modern capitalist system has been highly destructive to the point that we may actually destroy ourselves. And of course, there is a highly destructive strain of modern Christianity (prosperity gospel churches, etc) that are working to prop that up - but so are lots of people who are atheists or at least secular, and that is far more of a threat over all than some little old lady praying the rosary.

@anon3894935

just that it’s played a disproportionately large part in them

How do you gauge that, though? If you mean that a state religion has been the norm for all of civilization since recorded history began - well, sure… But even there, it’s a mixed bag on outcomes. The most long-lasting empires tended to be more tolerant of diversity, and absorbing of new ideas/religions (the ancient Persian empire and the Ottoman empire are examples of that).

@anon3894935

I assume you’re already well aware of that and have reached a different conclusion based on the same or similar knowledge.

[YankInNewZealand]

@beschizza

What are the reasons people are quitting?

Because it’s all bullsh!t.

[danimagoo]

What confuses me a little is that it seems like several mainstream religious denominations, in response to America becoming less religious, are moving to the right and clinging tighter to the some of the doctrine that is the very reason many people have been moving away from organized religion. Case in point: the United Methodist Church, which a couple of people in this thread have mentioned. I also was raised in a family that went to that church, in Texas, and growing up, it was definitely the more moderate Christian denomination. The Southern Baptists were the ones preaching Fire & Brimstone, while the Methodists were just a lot more relaxed about everything. In my church I can remember playing Dungeons & Dragons in the church basement with the minister’s kids. In recent years, however, the United Methodist Church has been increasingly flirting with evangelicalism, and becoming increasingly resistant to accepting LGBTQ+ people. And it’s probably going to result in a massive split in that church. And I just don’t get it. Your membership is dwindling, in part because of your moving to the right, and you respond to that by moving further to the right? I just don’t get it.

Full disclosure: When I came out as trans to my non-churchgoing Methodist parents in my 30s, they started going to church again, where their Methodist minister advised them to practice tough love with me and refuse to accept me for who I am. I now haven’t seen them since 2008, so yes, I am a little bitter.

[YankInNewZealand]

[HansL]

Good. Christianity, like disease carrying mosquitos, is a pestilence that is best destroyed.

[anon85524460]

@danimagoo

And I just don’t get it. Your membership is dwindling, in part because of your moving to the right, and you respond to that by moving further to the right? I just don’t get it.

A friend and high school graduate with me was at one time a UMC minister in the south and he was basically ordered to do this because “that’s where the money is at” and ultimately, the UMC is a business that spreads the word of God through the funds of its membership. And if the membership is dwindling but evangelical membership is on the rise, the solution is to do what the people who are making the money do.

He was fired from the UMC because he refused to take his church to the right after being ordered to do so and after he refused to tell his membership to vote for Trump. He’s now an Old Catholic priest.

[Purplecat]

If “moderate” christians are worried that the evangelical extremists are pushing people away, then the solution isn’t to tell Atheists and Agnostics that ‘That’s not what christianisty is about. It’s not supposed to be oppressive’
Tell the evangelicals.

[tyroney]

The south may be going to the right, but United Methodists are very in the process of splitting up over lgbtq stuff. (delayed by covid messing with their legislative bodies) From what I understand their western jurisdiction is largely liberal, with plenty of queer clergy and a bishop currently under charges for her “lifestyle”.

It’ll be… interesting to see what happens as it all gets ironed out. (It will still take a number of years for decisions to get voted on up and down the various levels of authority - I believe nothing major can happen for at least another quadrennium or two)