I was replying to your comment about people developing scientific breakthroughs inspired by their religion- in my opinion, a separate issue. I wasn’t ignoring these voice of liberation, and I agree with you that for them, their inspiration was due to their religion rather than in spite of it. I’ve already admitted that religion can be used for positive means, but often those positive means are canceling out negative effects also fueled by religion (sometimes the same religion, which brings me back to my original comment wondering why non-bigoted Christians feel they have to share so much of the same baggage with their bigot counterparts). But as you said, whether the positive actually outweighs the negative is a matter of opinion and hard to quantify, especially without knowing what the near future holds.
Okay, yeah. That definitely would have been a better example.
I can see that argument- Trump, for example, I wouldn’t describe as religious. However, he wields religion as a tool to manipulate his followers, so, inevitably, it still plays a role.
This is, in a way, my point- if a Christian isn’t superstitious, are they religious, or merely spiritual? If they don’t believe in the literal reality of a supernatural being who lords over us all and that that being had a son who sacrificed himself for our sins, then what relevance does Christ have aside from being an example of good, compassionate behavior? And if that’s what they get out of it, a warm fuzzy feeling and a role model, then why bother hanging onto the label of Christian when it’s also being used by a death cult? Why legitimize the supposed importance and authority of a Bible, a God, a Christ, if they’re just allegories and not the important thing at all? That’s what I don’t understand. If I’m smug about expressing it, it stems from my frustration and impatience that the political religious oppression you mentioned is still a thing humanity has to deal with in the 21st century. Sorry.
They solve this by only counting those of like mind as REAL Americans.
As for what causes disenrollment? A little social psychology here: one of (if not the principal) benefits to being in a congregation is …being in a congregation. Which increases nonlinearly, sort of like Metcalf’s Law for social networks. Once you start schisming the “brotherhood” and no longer accept other “children of the book” your members start associating more with other sects and losing benefits. In a society with multiple subpopulations – Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist variants, etc. – you reach a point where you might not be One of Us to anyone, but you get as much or more from at least not being Them.
Which is exactly what happens to a lot of college students. A “none” gets invited to a lot more events than any of the Faithful – and at that age, it matters. A lot.
That sorta explains why some diehard Christians are attempting 1984-style rewriting of history about how America’s a “Christian Nation” and Bible’s more important than the Constitution.
Just like people who want to over throw democracy shouldn’t be called Americans or allowed to fly American flags, but freedom of speech. True Christianity is some good shit, but all of the Christi-fascists and prosperity gospel people pull focus. None of those people are getting to heaven.
Feels like this can only be a healthy change that moves us closer to other developed nations. Though I do kind of fear that we’ll end up with a more extreme cultural split between right and left, with the remaining religious skewing increasingly (hard) right.
I assumed that it would be right-wing Protestant denominations that would be hardest hit, but apparently not. Drilling down into the specifics, it seems Catholic churches were hardest hit (so yeah, basically the reason you gave, albeit a different flavor of not walking the talk…) People becoming de-religious are disproportionately white, young, East coast, moderate and left-wing. So probably not the sorts going to fundie-extremist churches, but it still seems like that even non-conservative evangelical churches are going to have a certain amount of intolerant messages that could be increasingly turning people off. (And people in the more right-wing religious demographics are leaving the fundie churches too, just not to quite the same degree.)
Apparently in the 20th century, the percent of people affiliated with specific churches was incredibly stable, at about 70% of the population, but in the 21st it’s plummeted to under half. It’s very generational, with each new generation increasingly non-church attending with a difference that almost doubles between generations… People who have no religion are obviously a sub-set of that, but it’s interesting that there’s a substantial percent of the population that considers themselves religious but
So I was going to make a snarky comment about Christianity in decline in America because of the invisible hand of the market, and market is always right, etc. But then…
You’ve stated the case much better than I ever could. And really, I feel like this issue of religion-as-commerce should be elevated more in the discussion, because (in my opinion) it’s ultimately the point.
This honestly doesn’t surprise me much either. Father’s catholic, mother’s protestant, and they got a divorce. Now the catholic church doesn’t let him take communion unless he annuls the marriage, which makes me a bastard. They already don’t like me or let me take communion because I’m “choosing to live in a perpetual state of sin.” But even if I wasn’t gay, I am someone who is watching my father not be allowed to take communion in christ, even at his own father’s FUNERAL, because my Mother is still alive and Dad remarried. I wouldn’t want to be a member of that place after seeing how they treat their members, and by far I’m not the only product of divorce that saw this bullshit.
The same reason I hang onto the label of American, it’s what I am.
But I think about it every day. I’m reading the same Bible (they all have Micah 6:8, and the Sermon on the Mount, for example). I get a very different message out of it than others do. Here I’m worried about whether I did anything today that made the world a better place (or at least put the brakes on crappiness) while the loudest (or perhaps, amplified) voices seem mainly concerned with persecuting those who are already in a needy situation. I’m not going to not call myself a Christian because of how someone else behaves but, perhaps to your point, I’m not at all sure that helps anyone, either.
It’s (I guess) like being an American. The promise of America was always there and so were the obstacles. The way to making a better America seemed, to me, to build on that promise and eliminate the obstacles. If one loves America, anyway. How one arrives at making it better by thinking of new obstacles and, while they’re at it, throwing up a few old ones, and calling that “saving” America or re-greatening it… anyway I keep coming back to this, even if it’s outdated War Dept. propaganda:
When I was college age I knew a guy, neighbor or something, a generation or two older. We got to talking one night about the G-word, and he really knew his stuff about religion. At one point though I had to clarify, and asked “Are you atheist?” And the said “…Yes.” with the slightest hesitation and strain. He later revealed how difficult it was to get that word out, like it was a heart-pounding moment for him, since he had the fear of God beaten into him as a youth.
I had peers who said they didn’t believe in God, but there was always an edgy ring to how they said it. For this man, to denounce Christ was a real act of courage. Getting distance from religion is a journey, and I applaud the mutants who’ve shared their stories here.
Unfortunately, while the film is old, it’s by no means outdated. The Nazi’s strategy is the same playbook the modern fascists are using here and now in America, to subvert and conquer us all.
This is why I don’t see much point in non-believers scorning those who believe, or vice versa. Despite 12 years of Catholic school, I’m not a believer myself. But I respect those who find comfort and inspiration for good deeds in their faith, whatever that faith may be, even if I can’t find belief in my own heart. And, as the video says, this diversity of groups can make us strong, if we can work together.
I reserve my scorn for those who use the trappings of religion as means of self-enrichment, cloaks of false superiority, and methods of domination and persectution. They truly have no gods but themselves and their own ambitions, and they use Scripture in bad faith, as weapons against their chosen targets (conveniently ignoring the many parts of the Book that say “love thy neighbor.”) That, and not the issue of faith iself, is our enemy.
I should know better than to wade in here, but I think I have some hard won insights. I think most people are just not philosophers and never will be, and atheists probably have more in common with theologians, who care about the big questions, than they have with most people, who do not, and you need to make peace with that. I think authoritarianism seeks the most powerful religion, and if atheism had the most political power, fascists would be atheist, so fighting religion might be beside the point.
Yeah. I’d say the headline is already true - vanishingly few in the US actually behave like Christians - and folks who most loudly profess their Christianity are typically among the least Christ-like people around.
I agree, and that’s why I keep coming back to it… I meant “outdated” in the sense that, for example, no women have speaking roles.
the Trump administration — I never say just Trump, because he’s not by himself — has violated everything that Jesus said ought to be the first priority of nations. That is, to care for the poor, care for the least of these. And so it grieves me that brothers and sisters who claim to follow Jesus would do this and would be so loud on things that Jesus is so quiet about and so quiet on the very thing Jesus is so loud about.
