What I get from that is that we don’t actually disagree, it’s just that in your current situation you find my input boring and unhelpful. I can definitely relate to that kind of sentiment in other contexts. It’s not the first time you’ve had a conversation on this theme, you’re quite sure you already have a clear grasp of all the arguments involved, and it’s not even the main issue you’re concerned about right now. And when someone says something you’ve heard many times before, it’s maybe even kind of irritating that they think they’re clever for saying it.
I don’t know if it helps to say that I’m not trying to like personally educate you or argue with you, nor am I trying to show off or score points. I’m just kind of abstractly musing in the hopes that it’s useful to anyone who might read it, and trying to take in feedback the same way.
I’m not saying that the generally accepted context you’re talking about isn’t real; it definitely is.
What I’ve been talking about (and I have to say this again) is how I personally prefer to behave, my own rules, my own personal ‘actionable context’, one that addresses ugly-hurting at all, without regard to what norms and mores declare are exceptions and what are not. Is there really anything wrong with that?
BBS is telling me to stop talking to you, so this will be my last.
If you got that I don’t disagree, then I’ve failed to communicate. I’m not merely tired of hearing this argument:
But I think it is actively wrong and harmful.
Men will support feminism because it is obviously right to do so. So when a guy says Kellyanne Conway is ugly, we say, “This is misogynist!” some people will hear that and say, “You said it!” and some people will hear that and say, “Stupid SJWs!”. But neither of those groups of people matter (nothing wrong with that first group, but preaching to the choir and all). There are lots of people who will see this have never connected the idea of calling a woman ugly to the idea of being sexist in their brains who have the opportunity to learn something. There are lots of people who feel like they are alone in suffering indignity who will see this and say, “I’m not alone.” There are lots of people who will see it and say, “I’m glad someone else is speaking out on this one so I can take a breath.”
Tactics to bring men on board always seem to be about making things about everybody. “All Lives Matter” is about white supremacy, not about equality. And “Feminism needs to show men they are included to get more support from men” is likewise about male supremacy.
I want to flatten the hierarchy as much as the next anarchist, I don’t go around telling feminists that they need to stop complaining about men being sexist and adopt my agenda.
About me? Because I prefer that neither gender should get ugly-hurt?
Please correct me if I’m wrong: Do you think that I don’t recognize that women get the much shorter end of the stick when it comes to all this?
From everything you’ve said and responded to, and notably NOT responded to in this thread… until now, no, I don’t think we knew that you understood that, no.
You were asked if there’s any important difference between calling women and men ugly and you said there was none.
You said that according to society calling women ugly is wrong and calling men ugly is not a big deal.
You have not at any point said that women get the short end of the stick. (And note: you still haven’t)
Based on everything you have said in this thread, up to the point of asking that question, I think a reasonable reader would conclude that you think men get the shorter end of the stick because we don’t recognize how these insults affect them.
I’m guessing that we have differing definitions on what ‘context’ means.
Along with that, when I include open questions in my posts (and I have in this thread), that does not always necessarily mean that I’ve taken one or another position prompted by those questions. I’ve always been incredibly **curious about what people think (hence my questions), how/why they’ve come to those thoughts, how wedge issues (in general, with their unavoidable emotional weight) polarize discussion in the extreme, and how that can infect and hijack good, productive talks.
I simply don’t agree that looks should be any relationship with policy. And that is even farther than Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder.
So by this transitive policy (which I totes made up, but will stand behind), if a person hurls, “ugly!” as an insult, it insults me. On the other hand, “that policy is doa!” Is a different thing.
Well, there’s been a lot said on this but since you were responding to me, and at the risk of opening this whole thing up again, here’s my response.
No, I don’t think it’s acceptable to attack people for their looks. I don’t care whether it’s , or . If that’s the best you’ve got then you’re already losing, and if you have better then why aren’t you using it?
And yes, this applies to Trump too. When people call him dRumpf or Cheeto Mussolini or (my favourite) Trumpelthinskin it makes it easy for people to dismiss you as just not liking the guy (or possibly being 8 years old). Don’t insult his looks. I honestly don’t understand why he isn’t being referred to as 4 time bankrupt President Trump every single time.
I was also going to make this point, but Missy_Pants said it better and it bears repeating
I know I have mentioned this before to a couple people, but you may see a dapper dressed gentleman in a tent in your back yard cause this is the sort of society I choose to live in.
(This is not aimed at Missy, nor is mansplaining)
I prefer where we can acknowledge power imbalances; where we can work to make them more equitable, because that ultimately helps everyone, including the huge white dude japhroaig; and I gotta say, an attractiveness narrative is carping powerful.
I hope it is obvious why I have created the narrative of me in Tweed, right? It is because I am a lumpy, kinda odd, endearing, but not classically beautiful person. So I invented something for me that works, and while many people groan a bit, it is both fashion forward and hides my worst defects.
What gets under my skin the most when calling people ugly is they don’t even know what they are doing. It is like lobbing rocks at things you can’t see. What would happen if I doused a stone circle in paint? (Yeah, I saw that). The perps thought it was ugly, everyone else in the world marveled at it.
What happens when you call a person ugly? They turn in on themselves and let themselves revel in anger, despair, defensiveness, and so many other emotions that are destructive.
Unless your goal is to make the world a worse place, my advice is to not call anything ugly.
