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Seems to me you’d stop and see how beautiful they are.
Apologies for crossing the streams.
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“Based on everything you have said in this thread, up to the point of asking that question, I think a reasonable reader would conclude that you think men get the shorter end of the stick because we don’t recognize how these insults affect them.”
(Hello. Just got back from a great lunch, so I’m especially content.)
" …reasonable reader…"…
(… which I think can only be hoped for when in deep discussion involving emotional issues.)
“…you think men get the shorter end of the stick because we don’t recognize how these insults affect them.”
(Honestly, I think that’s a bizarre extrapolation. So 100% wrong!)
Paging @anon50609448 - those are his words, I just agree with them. 
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Oh, no you didn’t! I am still trying to understand why some people freak out over this.
I explained what it was you said that made me think that. I don’t appear to be alone in having drawn that conclusion. These two sentences alone do it:
Anyway, you don’t need my permission to believe whatever you want to believe about how well and precisely you expressed yourself and how bizarre it is that other people misunderstood you. I’m just some person on the internet, and I don’t even think I did misunderstand you.
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okey-doke
I am trying to limit my use of that word to abstract things (not always succeeding, because ingrained cultural habits die hard) like “ugly thoughts”. Nasty thoughts that I don’t like looking at. More than just mean thoughts, more than just dark thoughts, or at least different from them. Behaviour, like when people need to drag down other people’s fun/beliefs for no reason other than to be negative or feel superior (to be absolutely clear, this is not directed towards you, I am replying to you because you have laid out the best discussion of the power of the word as label and I pretty much agree with what you said). It fits because “ugly” is such a powerfully shaming word and there are some things/acts that should be shamed. Hurtful, hateful things. Like calling a person ugly. And those kinds of behaviours really are off-putting up to being stomach-turning to me.
I got called ugly in High School a lot, to a point where it definitely affected my sense of worth. To the point where very few pictures of me exist and even fewer are online (in fact the Internet and peoples’ habit of posting things without full permission of all participants has really led to my insistence in remaining off camera).
I think that’s the difference for me. Actions and ways of thinking are not inherent qualities. We can choose not to attack a person or make them feel bad, just to make ourselves feel better.
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Well, I guess I’ll have to be careful in the future of my seat-of-the-pants musings, scenarios, thought experiments, and sometimes rhetorical questions. I’m an engineer; I can’t think in terms of strictly end state (or declarative conclusion) when process (or what/how/why/when) precedes it. My bad I guess (as far as human relations). Gotta talk things out.
I wouldn’t say policy and the word ugly doesn’t always represent looks but yes that does tend have a looks connotation.
One actual definition of ugly IS “morally repugnant” and she really is that.
The better word for the way she lies to the world with confidence is evil and I would just call her evil and leave it at that.
Funny how us people that got marginalized stick together 
I personally don’t ever want to police speech–what could be called “ugly” when it comes to literature is my favorite. It is just when it is applied to these ephemeral forms we inhabit I get a little…
Well, a pic is worth a thousand words.
That is me and my dad just a scant few months ago, and he is only in his sixties. Guess what I am going to look exactly like in 18-20 years. This was him a scant few years earlier with my brother and mother.
And they are the same person!
I know you know that I know that you know… Wait, I’m lost :D. Not directed as an argument, just conversation 
Which brings me back to kellyanne. She is a carping person, with a family and friends that love her. An ideology that is at best archaic and at worst immensely dangerous. And the narrative is about her… Looks?
Okay, I am going to blur these cause they can certainly be trigger worthy, but are these next words used to describe her? shrill, emotional, you know it is just that time, tired, a solid 3, whiny, or can you get me an espresso with two creams and one sugar?
I honestly feel dirty vehemently defending someone I disagree with so fundamentally, but some of this bullcarp is so toxic it doesn’t matter.
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Exactly. None of those are explicitly about her deeds. None of those is explicitly about the harm she has advocated or done. They are solely about her existence as a woman. And it’s important TO defend her from those attacks, otherwise you’re saying “it’s only wrong if it’s against someone I like.”
I am fine with going after policy. I firmly believe that if you can’t handle criticism of your policies and beliefs you need to stay the hell out of politics. Politics is not and never has been nice. I am willing to not get in a fight with someone who says she is a horrible person, because we (in general as a society) recognise that such a statement does refer to deeds, views and policy.
BTW, I just see pictures of some smiling people who look happy.
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That sucks. It sucks to be told you’re ugly. Me and lots of other women have been called ugly before (as others here attested to). To our faces. From passing cars. Online. By people we love. By people we hate. By society. For about a 3 year period, it was a part of my daily life. So, I’m sure his feelings were hurt and he didn’t deserve it. I doubt it happened to him on an institutionalized basis that can impact things like job prospects, for not upholding some specific beauty standard in a way that pleases men.
This is not to say that men aren’t mocked, called ugly or made fun of, but that it happens to women on a regular basis that impacts our lives in measurably different ways then men. No one here has said that calling men ugly is the right thing to do, or in anyway acceptable. That’s not the point of all this at all.
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Definitely agree.
Also definitely agree.
Me either, at least not intentionally. The power hierarchy I was suggesting to flatten would be patriarchy in this case, or white supremacy or imperialism, etc in others.
Anyway maybe you don’t agree with me, but I think I agree with you. Thanks for the discussion!
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I wouldn’t characterize it as “freaking out”. More like disappointment that the worst fashion trends of the past are the ones that tend to resurface 25-30 years later. As in, wasn’t it firmly established in the 80’s that stirrup pants were a terrible, no good idea? Why would it be any better of an idea if you don’t cut most of the foot part off?
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I don’t want to get all repetitive here, but I typed ‘why shouldn’t i call women ugly’ into google and literally the first result addressed almost all the points a lot of men on this thread have been making. Over and over.
Like, instead of making women here explain stuff to you, you could literally type your question into google and find the answers written down by someone who was paid to do it.
We’re all trained into misogyny (more or less) from birth. It’s in how we watched adults interacting. It’s in books, TV, movies. It saturates our culture and nobody escapes internalising that. Which makes it really hard for us blokes to realise we’re doing it. Because it feels extremely natural. Which means trying to stop is really hard.
What I’ve found is that if somebody points out I’m being unintentionally sexist, I don’t like how it feels, but they’re doing me a favour. Obviously I didn’t know I was doing it or else I wouldn’t have. So they’re giving me useful feedback. So I try to swallow my annoyance, apologise if need be, and then think about how I ended up doing the thing and how I might recognise myself doing it next time and change course.
All the theory in the world doesn’t make up for practice. I can read a million books about playing the violin, but if I don’t pick up a bow, I’m not a violinist. Reading about feminism vs living it can be like that, with the additional baggage that one has been raised to believe that one has expertise over fiddlers. It’s hard to listen. It’s hard to change how we act.
So think of this as an opportunity to ask yourself: why you didn’t try google before commenting? Will you do something differently next time? How can you tell when this might next be an issue?
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I’m told that “Scars are tattoos with better stories”.
But I don’t mind being ugly. Since I’m a gainfully employed, property-owning male it’s not a handicap; and in some ways it’s an advantage. For example, it helps me deal effectively with younger, stronger, faster people who intend me harm; being physically large and ugly is a good mugger deterrent.
I’d rather remove the sexist bigotry and shame surrounding ugliness than pretend it does not exist. That being said, ugliness is mostly subjective, so I’m sure it’s possible to reach a state of consciousness where no human being is ugly in your eyes. If you’ve done so, kudos to you, my friend!
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We are on the same plane. The last couple weeks I have been physically approached by violent people, and to be blunt it is my scars, size, and demeanor that kept them away.
I think what I am not communicating well is that this language is part of a power transfer. Yesterday I was walking back home, a miscreant started talking shit about me on the street. Of course while walking I turn around, with a mischievous grin, point directly at him and yell, “’'Sup!”, with all my obvious scars.
The more subtle message is that ugly can be a positive tool. Like in that situation, it saved my ass from getting into an altercation. However, it is more often used as a pejorative to put someone down. Which I have a problem with.
Similar to sports jerseys that are retired, I think this word should be retired. Not forgotten, not unspoken, but it has done its job.
As an aside, if I didn’t carry a certain amount of ugliness–lets now call it strength–i wouldn’t be here today.
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