Evangelical congregation gives pastor standing ovation for admitting he raped a high-schooler

boing
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As someone who has been done wrong, I have a different take. Sort of like the LurksNoMore.

First off, forgiveness is a personal matter. You ask for forgiveness for personal reasons, without expectation of being forgiven. Not to feel better, but as part of becoming a better person. Recognizing you done messed up, fessing up, and making amends and self improvements as needed. It’s about stepping up and facing the consequences.

The other party, whether it was someone who you stepped on their toe or committed genocide against, has no obligation to forgive you, like your, forget what you did, or alter their feeling or expectations. Legal consequences might still be the correct recourse.

On the flip side, forgiving someone is even more intensely personal. It has little to do with someone asking for forgiveness, though it eases the process. It’s not about liking them again, forgetting, or giving in. It’s independent of justice because you can forgive someone and still feel consequences are necessary. Forgiving is about not letting the incident continue to eat at you, damaging you further. There’s something Vulcan about it. And it’s truly hard to do.

I still struggle to master both sides. But making the attempt is half the battle.

As for some churches standing behind prominent douche bags, it’s about getting their wires crossed. They are taught to be supportive of someone confessing sin. Clapping for someone who confesses something awful means that person has just taken a big step in their lives to turn things around. Kind of like admitting to drug or alcohol addiction. You should to be supportive of someone admitting a hard truth. The crossed wires are when, to show their support, they figure that this a good person on balance and shouldn’t face consequences. Wrong kind of support.

Not all churches do it the same. As a kid, the pastor at our church up and admitted to being an alcoholic and ask for forgiveness. He felt he’d wronged us by drinking while also being a leader. He asked if we wanted him as a pastor still. He stepped out and a serious discussion took place. The consensus (after much heated debate) was that his alcoholism had no tangible effect on us so there was no need for us to forgive him or replace him. Rather, the conclusion was get him the help and support he needed. He was around for several more years, and it was barely spoken of again.

Alternately, I knew (not knew of, knew personally) a pastor who was found to be having an affair kicked out after confessing to it.

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44

Honestly, even with the sincerity requirement strictly enforced, the handling of forgiveness/absolution and similar always struck me as a profoundly anti-humanist and downright creepy aspect of Christianity.

I can see God being the logical forgiving party in the case of my dabbling in polytheism, idolatry, Sabbath violations, that sort of thing because those are offenses where he is the wronged party. Being the wronged party he is the logical one to apologize to and can presumably agree to let it slide if he seems it suitable.

In the case of crimes against people, though, God is only peripherally a wronged party(in that the crime may be a contravention of one of his behavioral rules); while a person is the actual injured party(and, mortals being rather delicate and short lived, quite possibly the grievously injured party; not an invulnerable divine observer abstractly displeased by a rule infraction viewed from across an experiential gulf so vast that trinitarians treat bridging it as a fairly high caliber miracle).

Under such circumstances it seems abhorrent to treat divine forgiveness as an option, much less the preferred option, and vastly less the EZ-confession option; in that it hollows out the agency of the person you actually injured and pretty much makes your real crime and their real suffering a pawn in your relationship with God rather than the central problem of what you have done. (Note: this does not extend to divine forgiveness strictly for having disobeyed a divine command; but such forgiveness covers only the fact that you failed to obey a command, not what you did while breaking it).

The notion that you could be divinely absolved of an injury against a person, without regard for their interest and condition, seems to lead directly to the conclusion that the actual wrong is of no real importance; only the disobedience is relevant. Pretty much the “all is permitted” stuff normally ascribed to murderous strawman atheists; in terms of its implications for all the people in range of you; but embraced and lauded as pious virtue because of concern for the distant displeasure of the rulemaker. Chills me every time.

(At risk of digression, there are some similarities to the model of having a state employ force to punish crime rather than leaving it to revenge; but with the important distinction that the state case isn’t treated as a moral matter, much less the moral ideal in the context of an arbitrarily powerful and benevolent arbiter; it’s just a bunch of pragmatic hacks aimed at keeping blood feuds to a minimum and dishing out servings of coercion deemed approximately proportionate, to the degree proportionality is even possible, and it is often explicitly noted that it isn’t. Nobody goes around saying “The Court has forgiven me!” like it’s a change in moral status; either it concludes that you were not guilty in the first place; or it imposes a punishment that includes no expiation: once it is over you can go; but you are deemed no more innocent by virtue of this, merely finished with a finite punishment.)

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Like many aspects, if we want to be really honest.

Well stated.

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Yeah, I think that’s where a lot of people get confused. Both inside and outside of Christianity. But the more nuanced approach I’m familiar with is that confession, forgiveness, and consequences are independent. Separately with God and the injured person. You are in hot water with the injured person because, well, you hurt them. You are in hot water with God because you let him down. Ever apologized to your parents because you did for screwing up, even if they weren’t hurt by it? Sort of like that.

Most people, atheist and christian alike, feel there is something or somethings greater than themselves (society, the greater good, internet, God, the law, something). It not unusual to tip your hat to that something and say “Oops, my bad.” Then go on and apologize to the primary injured party.

No, thousands of years of religion and human behavior are not that simple. But it makes the point.

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47

I’m sure if he - or a woman - had admitted to raping a boy, they all would have been equally cool with it, right? Right?

Christ: "What an asshole!"

It sounds like that’s basically what she’s already being told.

That would, in some ways, actually be better. People could pretend to believe him to justify treating him well and her like shit - whereas in this situation, they believe her but still treat her like shit and take his side, as a result actively supporting rape culture.

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48

This is my central disagreement - I do not think that’s a thing. I think if it still hurts, if it’s still eating at you, that is because it still there, a fear or pain or anger and still needs care and compassion and to be addressed.

Imagine if you had to walk home in the rain and got soaked to the bone and found yourself miserable and shivering. Then the sun came out, brilliant and beautiful and warm - yet you are still cold and wet and shivering. Why you wonder? What’s wrong with me? Why can’t I let it go that it rained on me, why can’t I move on? - Instead of demanding yourself to let it go, it might be more useful to change into dry clothes at the next opportunity or think about when you can do that.

Psychology isn’t that simple of course, but I just think there’s not really anything to be gained by trying to stuff the worms back into the can, it just becomes an obstacle to actually figuring out how to take care of yourself.

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49

No they don’t. And the very people who would benefit most from such social forgiveness, are not only not forgiven, they are continually punished for the rest of their lives until they are dead. They are punished with unemployment, underemployment, exclusion from housing, social ostracism, and a curtailment of their legal rights, including voting and the sacred right to own a firearm.

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50

I am failing to see just what the fuck is wrong with this post.

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51

I’ve said much more aggressively anti-theist stuff and not gotten in trouble… I don’t know who’s all butthurt about the truth that xtians use divine forgiveness as a get-out-of-jail-free card for literally any wrongdoing ever. That’s basically the whole point.

Christianity says: you all are the shittiest shit that ever dribbled out of god’s ass and he’s super mad at you about being made by him all fucked up. So he killed his own kid to get over it and forgive you. Now remember, any little thing that makes him mad is as bad as being hitler or satan, so he’ll forgive you no matter what.

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52

This always reminds me of the Devil in Bedazzled (1967), describing how he lost Mussolini because of a last-minute plea for forgiveness at the end of his life, “… all that work, then right at the end with the rope around his neck, he says, ‘Scusi. Mille regretti,’ and up he goes!”

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53

I hope Jesus uses a strap on

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IIRC there is in Evangelical circles the concept of “sin-pride”, which means feeling special because you were such a terrible sinner before you repented and believing that God loves repentant sinners like you more than He loves those who have never sinned.

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Honestly, my first reaction:

“What the fucking fuck?”

Also probably my last reaction too.

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Why would Jesus need a strap on?

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57

This. It’s like they’ve never outgrown - or willfully regress to? - the magical thinking of little kids, that saying “sorry” fixes everything and wipes their own slate clean. I don’t accept that from my kid, and I certainly will not accept that from adults.

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Worse still, they’re being praised and called courageous and brave and worthy for admitting that they did something wrong, and are being treated as if the admission of wrongdoing is somehow enough to absolve them.

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It’s spelled out explicitly in Job.

(ETA: when I woke up at 3 AM to use the restroom it hit me- “oh shit, it was supposed to be the prodigal son parable, not Job. How the fuck did I make that mistake?” This is why I am a lifelong insomnia sufferer)

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60

There is just something fucked up about all this.

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61

What about abortions? Can you get one, just be sorry afterwards and everyone in the evangelical community loves you?
What about gay sex? “Whoops I fell on him but I’m sorry!” How often are you allowed to be repentant?

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Forgiving someone does not mean you can’t then remove them from your life, though. :slight_smile:

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