Snowden wouldn’t have survived in Cuba. A few years later they were doing their level best to normalise their relationship with the Obama administration.
1 Like
So now he’s a psychic who knew what was going to happen in Cuba years later in addition to being a superspy? There are certainly worse countries that he could have ended up in besides Russia, but not many. Not many at all.
Snowden had outside advice that the only country which was both favourable to him, and large enough to resist the USA, was Russia. Initially Snowden thought that would be China but he actually got out of Hong Kong by the skin of his teeth.
1 Like
That was some pretty bad advice, huh. He would have been better off in China. Or hell, half the countries in Europe.
I haven’t heard anyone confirm whether this particular laptop had classified material, but either way the woman in question clearly believed it might.
I’m not sure if this was the same computer that was stolen but Trumpists were circulating pictures of Pelosi’s desktop screen with an email application still open when the insurrectionists barged in.
3 Likes
God speed!
1 Like
She’s unquestionably a patriot, but to a different country.
Patriots like Kim Philby and others are honored by their home country with postage stamps:
5 Likes
Yeah, he would have sent it to Iran.
Which one are you thinking of that doesn’t have an extradition agreement with the US?
4 Likes
Via Wikipedia:
“By enacting laws or in concluding treaties or agreements, countries determine the conditions under which they may entertain or deny extradition requests. Observing fundamental human rights is also an important reason for denying some extradition requests. It is common for human rights exceptions to be specifically incorporated in bilateral treaties. Such bars can be invoked in relation to the treatment of the individual in the receiving country, including their trial and sentence. These bars may also extend to take account of the effect on family of the individual if extradition proceeds. Therefore, human rights recognised by international and regional agreements may be the basis for denying extradition requests. However, cases where extradition is denied should be treated as independent exceptions and will only occur in exceptional circumstances.”
“Many jurisdictions, such as Australia, Canada, Macao, New Zealand, South Africa, and most European nations except Belarus, will not allow extradition if the death penalty may be imposed on the suspect unless they are assured that the death sentence will not be passed or carried out.”
“Many countries will not extradite if there is a risk that a requested person will be subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In regard to torture the European Court of Human Rights has in the past not accepted assurances that torture will not occur when given by a state where torture is systematic or endemic.”
An extradition treaty doesn’t mean automatic extradition. I mean, the US didn’t end up getting to extradite Julian Assange, whose crime was not all that different from Snowden’s.
Also, " Some countries…(including Austria, Germany and France) forbid extradition of their own citizens." It is conceivable that Germany or France would have been willing to grant Snowden citizenship (as Russia ultimately did) just to prevent extradition.
1 Like
From 1990
I.D, Kudrya, Rudolf Abel, Konon Molodyi, Kim Philby, Stanislav Vaupshasov
2 Likes
Right, but we know for a fact that the German government denied him the right to come to Germany (and potentially claim asylum) when parliamentarians wanted him to testify about US surveillance against them. That’s not a counterfactual, it’s what happened. In practice no country in Europe would have resisted an extradition request.
4 Likes
It is a counterfactual. This is something that happened after he went to Moscow, and we have to look at it from the perspective of the decisions that he made while he was still in Hong Kong. We have to assume that Snowden somehow already knew what Germany (and every other country in Europe) would do in advance and also assume that the outcome would have been the same had he gone to Germany first instead of Moscow.
Had he gone to Germany, he would have had the right to apply for asylum and have that case heard and he would have had the right to appeal the extradition request and have that case heard. Counterfactual or not, these are rights that he would have had under German law.
From the perspective of Snowden while still in Hong Kong, I maintain that he would have nevertheless been better off going to Europe and taking his chances with the local courts (who do not always automatically decide things in the way that the sitting governments of France or Germany would want them to) than selling his soul to the fascist regime of Vladimir Putin. (And he had no excuse for not knowing what kind of regime Russia had at that time.)
He was a hero before he went to Moscow. Now, every minute that he spends in Russia is a propaganda victory for Putin. And I do not believe that he did not have the foresight to see that this would be the case. That is much harder to believe than the theories about him already knowing that no country in Europe would have protected him.
Russia is the only country in the world where SEAL teams and American drones can’t get him
Whether he ended up there by accident or on purpose isn’t really important, circumstances were going to push him in that direction anyway and now he has nowhere else to go
3 Likes
Running away from imagined SEAL teams and drones into the arms of a fascist dictator does not a hero make. I’ll bet that Iran would have protected him. Why not Iran? North Korea would have given him the red carpet treatment. Why not North Korea?
Here is a guy who risked his life exposing the borderline Orwellian spying of the American government on its own citizens…only to flee immediately to the beacon of free and open democracy that is Putin’s Russia.
If you’re going to undermine yourself like that, why do something courageous to begin with?
There is a lot about his words and deeds that does not sit right with me, and I do not trust people who end up in bed with Putin, no matter how it came about.
Really? You’re reduced to arguing that running to Russia shows he’s a coward because he could have gone to Iran instead? Or North Korea?
Possibly people who do ‘brave’ stuff also want to live reasonably comfortable lives.
Whereas people in bed with Kim Yong-Un are AOK?
I’ll grant you the ‘heroic’ thing to do would have been to sit and wait to be arrested and see whether you get a show trial or are just disappeared.
But I suspect when you are part of the dark underside of what is done in the name of US national interest and ‘freedom’, the differences between the US and Russia may not look so great. And at least in Russia, you know you’re dealing with people who play by a mostly understood playbook. And the prospect of sitting in a jail cell pales compared to a nice apartment in Moscow where you get to talk to journalists and tell yourself you’re still carrying on your duty of exposing wrongdoing.
‘Heroes’ are just people with flaws and mixed motives like everyone else. They just do stuff that fucks their lives up where most people don’t. When it’s stuff we approve of, we call them heroes because we want to encourage others; when it isn’t, we call them villains or criminals.
To paraphrase GagHalfrunt, “Snowden’s just this guy, you know?”
6 Likes
Do not twist my words. I was being sarcastic in mocking the notions that he was on the run from SEAL teams and drones, and that only Russia could have protected him. I was saying, “Of all the evil dictatorships in the world, what made him choose Russia in particular?” Becoming a cheerleader for any other dictatorship would have been just as cowardly, but there is something about Russia that makes it seem a bit…calculated?
Your own statement, “the differences between the US and Russia may not look so great. And at least in Russia, you know you’re dealing with people who play by a mostly understood playbook.” also makes it seem like a calculated decision.
Was it his plan to go to Russia all along, or was he simply naïve? You cannot have it both ways, and there are implications to both points of view.
What is frustrating about Snowden is that he could have been an all-around hero if only he had not gone to Russia. That one decision, if calculated, would negate everything he did before that. If it was his plan to have a nice apartment in Moscow all along, then why should we believe anything in the documents that he revealed? No, it is much better to believe that he was a naïve coward, and that is what I believe. Still, I think that he would have been better off trying his luck in Europe. Everything that he has said since would be a lot more credible that way.
I didn’t twist anything. Your statement is open to that interpretation. That you were being sarcastic was not obvious to me.
I don’t quite see how that particularly follows or why that would be especially worthy of criticism as opposed to planning all along to flee to some other country like Iran or North Korea.
Without getting into epistemology, for the same reasons you believe or doubt anything else.
It seems silly to have to say this but you do understand that your beliefs regarding his ‘heroism’ or whether you believe he was planning to go to Russia all along or even your beliefs as to whether he was a Russian spy along or not have nothing to do with the truth or otherwise of the documents?
All those do is affect your choice as to how to perceive them. They still remain what they are.
Out of interest, at what point would your scepticism shift?
If he exposed the documents intending at that time to be martyred in consequence and stuck to it, apparently that would be heroic.
If he exposed the documents, intending to flee to western Europe, that would apparently still be sufficiently heroic but presumably less so.
What if he exposed the documents intending to be imprisoned in the US if exposed but then changed his mind when faced with the realiy of that threat and fled to France? Acceptably credible or not?
What if he planned to flee to France but decided he wouldn’t make it so decided to go to Russia instead?
What if he exposed the documents intending to flee to Russia but got caught and pretended to have intended to “stay and take the consequences” all along?
4 Likes
I’d argue neither of the two. He tried to go somewhere else but at some point realised that Russia was the only option he had left (other than prison and possible execution).
3 Likes
Strong words from someone we don’t know would have had the moral strength to expose what he exposed in the first place, at great personal cost.
3 Likes
