Anyone know if this is an example of footage from a helicopter, or might it be from a drone?
Iāve already seen some die-hard supporters claiming the footage was photo-shopped to make Finicum look to blame (which is weird, since it doesnāt definitively look that way-- if youāre gonna fake it why not have him actually take the gun out and aim at officers). To which I reply āthatās nothing, I think itās all faked, in fact Bundy and the rest of them are still holed up at the refuge and have the FBI director hostage, and are on the verge of total victory! The media never tells the truth!ā"
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FBI says plane:
The plane is following the vehicles, and the camera sometimes pans from one vehicle to the other, a white truck in front and a Jeep in back. At other times when the vehicles are in a fixed location, the plane is flying in a pattern over that location. Because of that flight pattern, there are portions where trees obscure what is happening. The details that I am about to provide to you are based both on an analysis of this video and some ground-level observations of agents and troopers on the scene.
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Iāve seen this idea brought up a lot in this comment thread, and Iām genuinely unsure how I feel about it. It seems that the militia members were using all the āLiberty or death!ā rhetoric as political bluster, and as the situation plays out, itās clear that they were not actually looking to die in a gun battle with the Feds. For all his tough talk, even the guy who got killed never fired a shot.
Itās easy to see parallels in the assassination of Fred Hampton. Those defending the murder argued that Hampton and the Panthers openly advocated carrying arms and using them to defend against police brutality, and so it was completely reasonable that police would have to shoot Hampton in his bed before he could manage to get ahold of his gun and kill them all. An article in the Chicago Tribune called No quarter for wild beasts said:
They have declared war on society. They therefore have forfeited the right to considerations ordinary violaters of the law might claim.
At what point does political bluster become justification - or part of the justification - for getting in an armed confrontation and ultimately deciding to pulling the trigger?
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I donāt think theyāve said.I assume it could be a drone though a helicopter seems more likely.
Now I KNOW youāre driving trollies.
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I just realized something.
The ācompete videoā is 480p.
The edited video is 1080p.
Seems as if thereās some extra detail.
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Assumptions/assertions all mine and made in hindsight about a person I never knew, granted. That said, Iām making assumptions supported by a long history of being in and around gun culture myself, even if I am more of an observer than participant (that is, I own and use firearms, but because itās legal and not out of some misguided belief about having to own guns b/c of the 2nd amendment or the fear the gubmintās gonna knock down my door b/c reasons and therefore I should protect myself).
Maybe they were watching The Muppets via smartphone? Maybe they were trying to light detcord with a bic lighter? Maybe they were eating cranberries and chocolate? Maybe they were coherent enough to understand that 1) the Feds were not simply going to shoot them down in cold blood, and 2) were more than happy to let the legal and judicial system run its course? Maybe they understood the phrase, āoutmanned and outmaneuveredā? I donāt knowādo you?
Maybe heād already been having that conversation with the other people in the vehicle, and they said, āPlease stop because weāre not going to win this, and it isnāt worth dying forā, but being badass Mr. Finicum, he kept his eyes on the prize (that is, martyrdom)? Maybe he had enough sense to know that if he pulled and began firing from within the truck, everyone else would die, including himself, and given prior conversation, he figured he was the Lone Instrument of the Federal Governmentās Destruction.
Whatever he decided, it was clear he made the wrong decisions all the way down the chain, from what he said, to what he did. Prior experience with the Malheur nonsense shows that he had no reasonable expectation for the Feds to shoot him down, and quite frankly, your supposition that he was trying to throw his gun away (for safety, to show heās not a threat) is ludicrous.
The potential exists for the officer who fired on him to have made the wrong decision, but to my viewing of the tape, Finicum brought his own death upon himself with his words and actions.
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Iām embarrassed to say that Iām actually completely earnest. Embarrassed because Iām now realizing that Iāve probably put far too much effort into drawing out complexities that are just going to be answered with ālol trollā.
Perhaps it is I who have been trolled 
Looks like heās reaching for a gun to me. No loss to humanity.
They probably were there in no small part because they were excited to get to play soldier with their militia toys and were worked up about the Gubmint stealinā their right to exploit the environment, but they did have guns, did say lots of things about using them, did set up sniper outposts in the fire watch towers, and expressed a lot of crazy thoughts about dying in a hail of bullets (esp. Finnicum). If youāre in law enforcement and dealing with these people with real, actual guns, saying real, actual things about killinā and dyinā you canāt just decide they theyāre all play acting.
These are the same class of right-wing paranoid crazies who fired the first shots at Waco killing ATF officers, hold Ruby Ridge close to their hearts as a personal vendetta, and a few of them are open admirers of McVeigh and Nichols. Some were the same goons at Bundy Ranch pointing their guns at the Feds. There have been a number of bombing and assassination plots by these same far-right anti-government extremist sorts that the Feds have prevented in recent years. So, sure, they might have been posturing, but until itās played out thereās no reason for the authorities to assume thatās the case. Thereās still four left and only a couple days ago they were calling on their pals to come and shoot any cops/Feds they see that tried to stop them.
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Any confrontation with this group was guaranteed to have arms on at least one side. That side was openly breaking the law and threatening to use those arms on anyone who might stop them, and had rejected repeated attempts by the authorities to end the situation peacefully.
It really, really sucks that things came down to a person dead, but this group chose to allow it to escalate to that point.
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And how. G-man on the left didnāt have a rifle as I thought. Looks like heās a southpaw with an long-arm stance.
Unclear. The truck was canted in the snowbank to the passenger side, and at around 7:14 you can see the snow on the passenger side up as high to cover the wheel-well. Itās possible the passengers couldnāt open their doors. And only Bonnies and Clydes shoot from insides.
In reviewing the hi-def vid that @jerwin found (hat-tip), there is an interesting cloud of something around the B-pillar area of the passenger side at 7:20. Unclear what that isā¦
- Thatās a shot fired out. Givāem Hell, Team Bundy.
- Thatās a shot fired in. The trigger-happy cop deserves, at worst, get 2 weeks paid vacation on our tax dollars.
- Actually, thatās snowball thrown by a yeti.
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BUT IT WAS!!! THE GUBERMINT USIED THERE MIND CONTROL SATTELITES TO MAKE HIM GET OUT OF THE CAR AND REACH INTO HIS COOAT!@!!!1!!! THEY OUR GONING TO GET ME NEXT!!! ITS A CONSPARICY AN IAM THE ONE RINGIN THA ALRM BELL!!!
/s
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The FBIās claim isnāt that they killed him because of his political bluster, the claim is that they killed him because he was reaching for a gun. His earlier statements, actions and the aforementioned fact that he was known to be armed all add credence to that claim.
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Itās incredible how concerned some new folk are with police violence all of a sudden.
They should really look back a few days/weeks/months and see much, much clearer examples of unnecessary force.
You know, if I were a more cynical person Iād say itās almost unbelievable that they are concerned primarily with how police handle suspects.
This sounds a lot more like a discussion of ethics in game journalismā¦
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Yes, with this heavily armed group of right-wing extremists making threats of violence, if this had been in Germany something would have happened much sooner.
Probably.
The public demand would have been huge too.
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If I recall correctly, during the Q & A part of the FBIās press conference yesterday, someone asked Greg Bretzing (the self-described āspecial agent in charge of the FBI in Oregonā who gave it) about the audio of the traffic stop. He replied that was not released because it was part of the ongoing investigation into the shooting. (I canāt find a transcript of the Q & A portion.) He also said there were actually 2 planes in the air, but the video from the 2nd plane was of lower quality (i.e. due to trees, etc.) than the video they released.
What I came here to publicly wonder was if anyone knew of any concrete philosophical or legal principles these fool armed occupiers based their actions on. Iāve been following the story pretty closely, since Iām an Oregonian, and have read up on the situation, but as far as I can tell, they pretty much pulled their reasons for occupying the Malheur Wildlife Refuge out of their butts. (Can the federal government own property? Why yes, it actually can, you fools.)
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