And this is exactly why they were so hands off an careful about the situation. Because no matter how factual, logical, etc, the evidence is this is the narrative that will be in their heads. A martyr for the cause,
6 Likes
1 Like
Which is not to say that Germans canât botch this sort of thing, too â the most egregious case in recent history is probably this one.
Oh, definitely.
Having been approached and bitten by a small dog, Iâm willing to bet he was calling it a day ~2.6 seconds into that encounter. I noticed that the LEOs involved had a K-9 unit at the first place they stopped Finicum, though his eventual stopping place was so deep in the snow that it mightâve been too dangerous to use a K-9 at that point. But I agree with the premise of K-9s as a good way to mitigate death by cop.
Obviously there are very many differences between the two situations, including the fact that Fred Hampton was a very cool guy while this militia dude is a shitbag, and Hampton was obviously not an immediate threat while with this guy itâs more ambiguous.
What i was more interested in was a particular similarity, but I can see how the differences could be too distracting. So youâre probably right, itâs not actually easy to see parallels.
I guess if you know that the conclusion Iâm arguing for could only be held by a delusional person, then my entire line of reasoning could appear as rationalization. But I think that:
a) you probably misunderstand my conclusion, as evidenced by the âintro to racismâ gif you posted
b) maybe iâm not delusional, Iâm just mistaken. If so, we could make progress by discussing it. If you donât have time or interest in a discussion, thatâs ok. But thereâs no need to justify that by using âtrolleyâ or âcrazyâ.
Iâm inclined to agree, personally. But itâs kind of creepy to think that the government would use our political tendencies to decide how confrontational/violent to be with us, right? I mean, I know a lot of activists whose rhetoric could lead outsiders to put them in the âsame class of left-wing craziesâ as the Symbionese Liberation Army, but in practice theyâre nothing alike.
This kind of thing has become abundantly clear in the âWar on Terror/Muslimsâ, where people are very quick to decide that because a group of people practice a particularly conservative brand of Islam and talk about holy war against all infidels, they are basically Al-Qaeda. But it turns out that actually quite a lot of people in the world hold those beliefs, and almost all of them are harmless.
You know what does get harmless people rowdy though? A martyr.
Thatâs an interesting way of putting it.
Those people took up arms against their government. Yes, there are situations when that is appropriate. However you do not cross the Rubicon lightly. You have to be prepared to either overthrow your government or get smacked down hard. You canât reasonably expect to walk away from that as a free man. At least in America they had every chance in the world to come out of this alive and get out of prison eventually.
3 Likes
More to the point, itâs actually POINTLESS to see parallels. Plus downright offensive.
6 Likes
I never said that. Please do not put words in my mouth. My point was that the two situations are quite different. Iâm not advocating for the assassination of these guys or claiming they are evil. Iâm saying that the two situations are not alike. The militia dudes are not being victimized by an organized government conspiracy to oppress them, while, clearly Hampton was in fact being victimized in just this fashion. Bundyâs groups demands are not grounded in any sort of reality, while Hampton and the Panthers (whether you agree with them or not) had specific demands grounded in reality.
But if you see parallels, can you elaborate on that point, please and show me where they exist. Iâm not seeing them, other than the fact that the FBI is involved in both instances.
6 Likes
Some of the gents on the ranch were open admirers of the perpetrators of the second largest terrorist attack on US soil. The vast majority of them had the political tendency of expressing justifications for political violence (usually delusionally framed as âself-defenseâ - If the cops come to arrest, itâs only self defense to fire on them). Itâs really not creepy to me for law enforcement to take that kind of thing into account, actually Iâd find it disturbing if they didnât. That was also all speculation on my part and not stated justifications by law enforcement for the whys and hows of their ongoing operations.
3 Likes
not only, just in this case, and on this topic, and you.
but not only. That sort of righteous language and projection of it onto others is just further evidence of magical thinking.
No, I said that. I think that Fred Hampton was a very cool guy and the militia dude was a shitbag. I guess I assumed you did also, but maybe weâve both been assuming too muchâŚ
I donât want to repeat myself too much because itâs annoying and doesnât create clarity, but to summarize the parallel is that politics - specifically militant anti-government bravado - was brought up in both cases as part of the debate around justification for a police confrontation and shooting. So invoking that justification in this case could set a social precedent for the Fred Hamptons of the future. I donât actually know, but it seems at least worth worrying about.
Yeah, but my online handle is Moroni'); DROP TABLE Suspects;--
###JOKES ON YOU FED!
6 Likes
brought up as an secondary or tertiary âjustificationâ. Not primary.
Primary reasons being a shitload of provocation (most of which was obviously bluster) up to and including near deadly force used by the deceased moments before he became so.
Why are you so intent on making a comparison with a Black Panther?
Apples and sawhorses.
Fuck. I clicked the link.
6 Likes
Okay, fair enough on that. I do agree that Hampton is cool. I donât know if the militia dude is a shitbag, but likely.
So if they are similar, itâs on the side of the FBI, not parallels between Hampton and Lavoy (that his name?). Iâm not sure I agree, but fair enough again.
To me, the Black Panthers are a good example of a pretty righteous militant anti-government movement, and the Bundy Militia is a good example of a very un-righteous militant anti-government movement. I realize there are dramatic and important differences. I am comparing, not equating. But to the cops, the government, and a lot of mainstream society, theyâre both just militant anti-government movements.
I think itâs useful and important to focus on the righteous/un-righteous debate. But it may be ultimately counterproductive to endorse violent state action against the militia on the basis of their militant anti-government rhetoric, because of the implications for more righteous movements.
There may be other recordings, with audio/video, but mixing audio from one source with video from another is a COMPLETE journalism and legal no-no.
Well put. I think another good general rule for armed rebellions is âthey are destined to fail unless you convince a plurality (if not outright majority) of citizens that your cause is just.â
Itâs hard enough taking on a government that has you outgunned by several orders of magnitude. Itâs downright impossible if most of your countrymen are rooting against you.
2 Likes
Sorry this is so late, but I looked at the video again and I stand by what I said.
I extended the line (red) of the shooterâs left forearm through his pistol and into the distance. I also extended a line (solid black) from his wrist to the back of the perpâs truck. Everything âaboveâ the black line is behind cover of that truck.
I claimed âwith pretty much everyone else directly behind the intended targetâ and you can see 4 (of 5) non-perps in frame lie between those lines. I will concede they are largely behind cover of the LEO trucks, but with the flanking trooperâs higher elevation, they are still exposed. Not to mention heâs on uneven snow, fully extended and moving, all of which increase his likelihood of missing. A better-executed pincer would have put the shooter closer to the green line, about the shallowest I could come up with that puts missed shots âaboveâ the other LEOs.
Youâre right, he had to carefully balance not entering whatshisnameâs sight, and staying out of the other engaged trooperâs line of fire, Not an easy task, and he seemed to have naaaailed it(!), so he gets a pass this time.
4 Likes
