Freeze Peach 🍑 (USA)


#323

Here’s some history…

The New York Times, doxxing Jewish pacifists in WWI.


#324

#325

For context, Reb is one of the best-respected street journalists in the country.


#326

Some animals are more equal than others…

Or because canceling gives them a chance to get more publicity? Not all but it does happen.

Thanks for that explanation.

I should do some research on just that.


#327

You got nitpicked but yeah, all what the person you replied to was going on about was in fact already addressed. I simply chose not to reply to them.


#328

And yet oddly enough there is so much creative work out there that does not rely on using someone else’s work. As someone who at times tried to make a living off my own creative works, I always found the “information wants to be free” and its related “I should be able to use anyone else’s work how I want” to be very weak indeed.

@M_Dub may have over reached with “all” but in fact no double think is required.


#329

#330

Behold the master race;

I’m so proud to be a part of it I could cry.


#331

Phew, good thing you posted that, what with all the defense of nazis you got going on.

I’m gonna go ahead and pull this little tidbit out and let people think about it. Here we have a person claiming that the left is guilty of trying to get “publicity” by trying to hold meetings, then cancelling them when outcry is reached. In reality, this is the actual actions of nazis in practice.

No, multiple goalposts have been shuffled around, but no one has addressed the fact that society allowing hate speech is society condoning hate speech. Legality has been offered as if the decisions of courts have any weight when the same courts have upheld bigotry and hatred in case law. Emotional appeals have been offered (“If I’m jewish, and I’m okay with nazis, why shouldn’t you be?”).

But no, you haven’t actually addressed any of the concerns about the problems of absolute free speech, you’ve only declared that it’s a settled matter because you think if people stop responding to you, or if arguments satisfying your own personal opinion of the issue are made, the debate is settled.


#332

I stopped responding because of your poor manners. It isn’t about winning or losing the Internet.


#333

Lmfao, literally “tone argument” in it’s purest form.


#334

Just a reminder to everyone in this thread: a lot of people are reading this conversation in hopes that it might clarify or resolve their own undecided/muddled thoughts on issues of free speech. Bickering only drives such readers away.

Even if you don’t feel you’re reaching a particular participant in this thread, rest assured you still have an opportunity–many, in fact–to reach someone who is simply listening. Take that opportunity.


#335

It’s difficult to do that when people dismiss responses out of hand because the person they’re replying to didn’t follow Robert’s Rules of Classy Debate or whatever dumbshit reason they use when they can’t back up their argument.


#336

really? are you cutting off debate with this person because of tone? . . . because your feelings are hurt? . . . because their etiquette is inadequate to your ability to tolerate? it would be one thing if they had excoriated you on an existential basis implying you had no right to existence but it’s another thing when an interlocutor describes what they see as the potential outcomes of your stated positions, even if the description is worded harshly.

so does that mean if everyone started responding to you with what you regard as poor manners you would eventually stop commenting?


#337

This gets into the issue of if a comment is worth flagging or not and that is far off topic for this thread. Personally I’d rather not respond to comments which are borderline provocation but not flag worthy for the reason @Snowlark pointed out above.

If some choose to try a hecklers veto that is their prerogative.


#338

Well, no one’s addressed it until you expressed your confusion on the matter because most people understand the very simple concept of allowing speech does not mean condoning said speech. Hope that helps!


#339

We can have differing opinions of the value of copyright in society, but that’s an aside to the free speech discussion. My point is that it doesn’t take risking life and limb to restrict someone’s free speech. Free expression can be shut down by the government to protect private profit; that is one example of a strong enough reason to protect free speech.

When you are arguing that X (nazi speech) is S (speech), and that X is F (free) it makes a very big difference if the middle statement is “all S is F” or “some S is F”. One means you have a simple logical argument, the other means actually engaging on the idea of why some speech ought to be restricted and other speech should not.


#340

Here I agree in that the arts are so often historically subject to censorship but disagree on the conflation of for profit since copyright law protects the expression of the original creator.

But all along I’ve argued here that even the offensive expression is worth protecting so the difference you describe seems tautological unless I’ve misunderstood.


#341

I understand that you are defending offensive expression as worth defending. Elsewhere in the thread I’ve seen what I regard as compartmentalized thinking where absolutism comes out to defend Nazis but recognition of reality is there fro copyright, threats, hiring assassins, etc.

And you have a fair point that copyright isn’t entirely about profit. It is about ownership. And I think someone can reasonably say why copyright protections aren’t a danger to the ideal that free speech is trying to protect. I also think that copyright is a place where someone could point out there has been a slippery slope from what seemed like a reasonable law to worse and worse laws.


#342

Elsewhere @pesco linked to http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/sex-pistols-talk-never-mind-the-bollocks-song-by-song-w509836 where it is pointed out that the Sex Pistols were subject to various forms of censorship. How absurd that seems today but it reminded me that unpopular expression is worth protecting.

Also in the November/December edition of Foreign Affairs author Susan Hennessy pointed out that US officials had not anticipated or understood the DPRK hacking of Sony Pictures as an attack on the core values of freedom of speech and expression.