Never seen a bathroom stall door that goes down to the floor. Always stops about a foot or so short. Though I guess you could jam something in on the lip of the door, though that’s kind of hit/miss so not secure enough for any peace of mind and then it becomes ‘oh god is the thing going to slip? Is it going to slip and cause the door to open?’
How is that unreasonable though? If someone who visually looks every bit like a man walks into the women’s bathroom, isn’t that kind of a problem?
How do you reasonably expect people to distinguish between “creepy dude who walks into women’s bathroom to gawk at ladies using the bathroom” and “dude who identifies as a lady and feels he has a natural right to be in the women’s bathroom”? Can anyone explain this to me?
(And to be honest, part of the problem is yes, some dudes really are that aggressive and creepy and horny. Enough that it’s a realistic concern. Women are way less sex-creepy in my experience.)
Maybe 200 years from now gender roles will be so fluid that we’ll all happily be using one bathroom together, man woman or whatever in between who cares, but that seems really far off to me today.
In 42 years of using the bathroom, this has happened to me exactly once and ironically it was in a single room bathroom where I could have locked the door but forgot. Is this a realistic concern? It feels like concern driving trollies to me.
possibly get them arrested (for being in the wrong gender bathroom) depending on the local laws
How is that unreasonable though? If someone who visually looks every
bit like a man walks into the women’s bathroom, isn’t that kind of a
problem?
I did not say they visually look every bit like a man or woman. Usually trans people pretty clearly work to make their gender identity apparent. That’s not to say that all trans people do, or feel they need to, and that can complicate things. But those who are usually concerned about which bathroom to use generally do their best to fit into society as the gender with which they’ve identified.
So if you barge into a bathroom stall, and see someone sitting there who appears every bit the typical woman, but you can see she has a penis. Do you feel you have the right to yell at her? Scream at her? Make her feel terrible about herself? Hit her? Have her arrested for being a creepy pervert? If the answer is yes, you’re part of the problem. If the answer is no, then where do you draw the line? I draw the line at minding my own business unless someone is causing problems like stalking people, watching others as they relieve themselves, hitting on others in the bathroom, and otherwise being overtly skeezy.
How do you reasonably expect people to distinguish between “creepy
dude who walks into women’s bathroom to gawk at ladies using the
bathroom” and “dude who identifies as a lady and feels he has a
natural right to be in the women’s bathroom”? Can anyone explain this
to me?
I’d go by the person’s appearance and/or I’d ask them. Simple, huh? If they’re behaving very strangely, though, I might be concerned. But I wouldn’t automatically assume that they’re there for nefarious purposes with no other evidence to suggest that’s the case.
In 42 years of using the bathroom, this has happened to me exactly
once and ironically it was in a single room bathroom where I could
have locked the door but forgot. Is this a realistic concern? It feels
like concern driving trollies to me.
I’m not 42 years old and it’s happened more than once to me.
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Nah. I have honed my glare, and evil wit for just such occasions.
That stall is for disabled people you maniac!
I’ve actually been in stalls where my knees touched the door. Now granted, I am quite tall, but my legs aren’t that much longer than average.
I still feel like this is concern driving trollies. The “people barge in on a stall” scenario is just… like getting hit by a meteor. I guess it can happen but it’s hardly the point of this conversation, is it? Why fixate on something so rare when we can talk about the obvious stuff like a person who looks like a man walking into a women’s bathroom, and why that’s weird to most folks, and how to handle it.
(Hint: it’s partly because a lot of dudes are sexually aggressive creeps. And you would have the same problem if you were perceived as a woman in a man’s bathroom, again, because a lot of dudes are kind of sexually aggressive creeps who would accost the perceived woman with ‘hey baby’ and other bullshit. If everyone was a woman there’d be a hell of a lot less sexual aggression in the world. But none of us would exist, either, I suppose.)
In this case, if that is truly typical and common, it seems like “ability to pass as a man/woman” is paramount, as I mentioned earlier. It’s not like there aren’t plenty of mannish looking women and feminine looking men out there already.
What about this?
I wish they made a metal, more secure version, but it seems like it’d be better than nothing.
So, one, it is not as uncommon as you think it is. I’m 35 at it’s happened to me at least half a dozen times. Two, people have been murdered because of this. However uncommon it is, it is not uncommon enough to dismiss.[quote=“codinghorror, post:26, topic:11126”]
So why fixate on something so rare when we can talk about the obvious stuff like a person who looks like a man walking into a women’s bathroom, and why that’s weird to most folks, and how to handle it.
(Hint: it’s partly because a lot of dudes are sexually aggressive creeps.)
[/quote]
You’re fixating on transmen being unwelcome in women’s rooms when several people have said that transfolk often find themselves unwelcome in any bathroom. In the men’s room you get your ass kicked for wearing a dress and makeup; in the women’s you get your ass kicked for having a strong chin and an Adam’s apple.
The problem is that they way we build bathrooms is Goddamn ridiculous. It’s not just a problem for transpeople; it was perfectly clear to me as a body-shy six-year-old. What fucking idiot thinks it’s a good idea to have the part of the bathroom where you drop your pants separated from the public part by a five-and-half-foot-tall partition with quarter-inch gaps around the doors? I’m 6’2", and when I walk down a row of stalls I have to make a special effort to not accidentally peep on anyone. If we built bathroom stalls like sane people, with proper doors and floor-to-ceiling partitions (and proper vents for airflow), then if wouldn’t matter if creepy dudes came around trying to peep, because they wouldn’t see anything.
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I still feel like this is concern driving trollies. The “people barge in on a
stall” scenario is just… like getting hit by a meteor. I guess it can
happen but it’s hardly the point of this conversation, is it? Why
fixate on something so rare when we can talk about the obvious stuff
like a person who looks like a man walking into a women’s bathroom,
and why that’s weird to most folks, and how to handle it.
It seems to me that you’re saying my experience, and the experiences of others, are invalid, because you yourself have not experienced them.
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Except it’s a lone giant stall in a single toilet room. I is a disabled stall, but the kind folks at the school also made it the only gender neutral bathroom allowed to trans* students.
NO! the ability to pass is not paramount. That puts the onus on the victim of violence for not passing well enough. The problem is there are just people out there that will hurt people like me. It’s not rare. It’s not unheard of. It happens. My anxiety about being able to pee in public without being beaten up, is a pretty common trans* fear. It is based on experience. You should NOT have to pass as either end of the gender binary to get to pee without fear.
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No, I am saying that focusing on the rare state of “someone might accidentally barge in to a stall and see confusing gender bits” is detrimental to the discussion of the common state of “someone sees a person who looks like a man walking into a woman’s bathroom” (or vice versa).
If we’re going to be concerned, let’s be concerned about the everyday issues first.
I guess if passing as male or female is not an option, then the only answer is private lockable bathrooms, where available. Where private lockable bathrooms are not available, perhaps one could locate a business nearby that has private lockable bathrooms?
Getting into slightly weirder solutions, there are devices that let you pee in any closed locked room, which would be easier to find, provided you can dispose of the urine later. Definitely awkward, but doesn’t seem insurmountable. No idea on, uh, the other common bodily function though.
No, I am saying that focusing on the rare state of “someone might
accidentally barge in to a stall and see confusing gender bits” is
detrimental to the discussion of the common state of “someone sees a
person who looks like a man walking into a woman’s bathroom” (or vice
versa).If we’re going to be concerned, let’s be concerned about the everyday
issues first.
This is an every day issue for trans people. It’s a problem, a fear, a danger, that trans people wrestle with each day. You’re correct that someone isn’t having a stall door opened on them every second of every day, but the possibility of the door being opened or of someone seeing something they weren’t supposed to see is real and can have extremely dire consequences for trans people.
But, this isn’t something I’m not already used to. Silly me, thinking I could use the restroom like regular people.
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I’m not trans, but not having locks on stall doors is dumb. Short stall walls are also dumb. Neither should exist and either can make me really anxious that someone will see me sitting on the shitter, no matter how remote the possibility is.
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Hear, hear. I’m a straight, white youngish male, and as such have the very leasst to worry about in terms of bathroom security (and many other domains), but I find urinals absolutely ridiculous. The more privacy, the better in my book. Helping incredibly vulnerable populations like LGBT folks is just another great reason to stop building bathrooms like exhibitionist latrines. A row of individual, gender-non-specified locking doors with highly visible “occupied” signs with an open-view, non-gendered hand sink area to keep everyone honest in the e-coli prevention game.
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I think this would be an awesome way to build bathrooms.
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I was curious enough to do a search, and found a very well-sourced answer to why American toilets are designed that way.
I actually assumed it was a safety thing; to me, a completely enclosed lockable room with zero visibility from the outside sounds like a sexual predator’s dream come true. But of course the truth is more prosaic, and so very much like the US to be more concerned about someone possibly getting away with something illicit than worry about things like privacy.
Honestly, gendered bathroom stalls are a weird idea in the first place. Have a small section put aside for urinals, the rest for unisex, lockable, full-height stalls. Much more efficient use of space and (if designed smartly) potentially safer due to less need for warren-like mazes of walls.
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Who gets to decide if I pass adequately, and how far am I supposed to go to find a business with a single lockable unisex toilet? Or an enclosed lockable room to apparently pee, which is weirder than just peeing.
The problem is NOT if I pass or not. The problem is the people who exhibit violent intolerance. This is not a passing issue.
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Urinals are a very efficient use of space. Having a small row of urinals behind a wall would help free up even more of these (very sensible) non-gendered stalls.
This could be a toilet revolution! No more long queues for the ladies! No plugging gaps with toilet paper for the terminally shy! How do we get architects on board with this idea?
Not that these are good reasons not to make this change, but shorter queues for ladies means longer queues for men. Plus since the ladies’ room tends to be nastier than the men’s room, that means an increase in nastiness for guys to deal with.
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