Gun-toting mom shot in the back by her 4-year-old may go to jail for 180 days

This happens so infrequently, I don’t think it is warranted. The person shot should have health insurance (its the law now). Most accidents are self inflicted wounds, with being hurt by someone else is the minority. Depending on where it happens it would fall under other insurance umbrellas, like home owner insurance. Of course one would be liable for the damage legally in some cases as well.

As I pointed out in the past though, basically the insurance scheme is classist at best, racist at worst. White middle class people can pay the insurance scheme. The poor, especially minorities, are less likely to be able to. So you just removed their right to defense. Furthermore, you added one more law already marginalized people who are put into prison for petty reasons to get another charge tacked on. One that is just ripe for officer discretion to add or not. I am sure the Spirit of Jim Crow would agree with you.

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You provided the claim of relative safety from firearms, not me.

Do you have a citation for that? I’m not saying you are wrong, but some stats on gun injuries are beyond my lazy, first page or nothin’ Google fu.

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Not according to me. My brother-in-law designs circuitboards at work and and home. Perfectly legitimate reasons, unless you’re designing circuitry for personal armed drones that you’re planning to use to kill people. Those things are designed (or even advertised) for their ability to kill human beings.

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When the supposed “bloodlust” (ironic choice of words there, btw) of people who want to decrease gun violence is contrary to the interests of manufacturers and lobbyists and enthusiasts who seem sociopathically unempathetic towards gun violence victims or potential gun violence victims so much that they won’t even discuss moving even the slightest inch of regulation further to reduce the negative impact of their completely optional, blood-drawing hobby/interest/product, then your interest in decrying bias seems misplaced.

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Not handy, I swear I saw it in a CDC or similar detailed PDF on accidents in general. They had a firearms column that included self inflicted and other sources.

Note again, many “accidents” on deaths and injury are actually suicides/suicide attempts. How many I don’t have a firm number, but I I believe it to be more than just a small percentage based on how many questionable accidents out there.

The Topic today is gun accident and what the punishment should be for neglectful use. I think I have done a fair job of aligning crime with punishment.

The other stuff is for another day.

So, my short answer would be yes.

However to prevent the idea that I’m a big brute of heavy handed justice I’d like to point out a few things. This is by no means a nimble attempt to change minds or debate etc, but just putting my thoughts down. Its certainly not meant to be confrontational or offensive.

So Victim blaming? Yes, I’ll victim blame here. The definition of negligent discharge is that the owner of a firearm was negligent in the storage or operation of that tool and someone was hurt or killed. Thats entirely on the firearm owner. I don’t blame the child in this case, they shouldn’t have had access. If you want to call that victim blaming on the parent, go for it, I don’t mind. The firearm owner caused this to occur. They are responsible for that tool.

The four states of firearm use are this:

No discharge - the choice to not use a firearm in a given situation
Deliberate discharge - the choice to use a firearm in a given situation
Accidental discharge - when a firearm has as failure, usually mechanical or materials related and discharges. The majority of situations called accidental discharge are actually negligent discharge.
Negligent discharge - when the owner of said firearm is negligent in storage or operation. The majority of these occur from complacency.

On top of that we have a legal system that WILL consider all the aspects of what happened. The firearm owner may not even be indicted on criminal charges based on how the jury sees the case. What I’d like is harsher penalties for negligent discharge. It doesn’t have to be 80s style bullshit programs like 3 strikes and you’re out, but enough to get people to realize complacency isn’t something they can allow to happen.

My point is that there is a never ending debate about firearms, and one of the biggest positive impacts that could be made would be a reduction of negligent discharges. Whether or not harsher penalties for negligence is the route to go, thats for a different discussion, but I think there’s a good feedback loop we can close through legislation. The enemy isn’t the firearm, the enemy is complacency. Hell read any these articles about accidental shootings, and I’d bet they’re almost all related to a complacency failure by the firearm owner. That behavior can be corrected over time.

You can use similar logic for your examples. If I’m texting while driving, drunk driving, distracted driving, driving a car I can’t operate correctly, or am driving in any condition when I shouldn’t, I’m responsible for any negligent use of that car. If my actions kill someone, I should be liable. However in that court case, the jury may not decide to support a harsh penalty due to those circumstances.

And I really do understand where you are coming from. I had a very similar incident with a car where I blew through a red light and got into an accident. I also didn’t have a clue what the hell had happened because it looked like I had a green. I took responsibility for that completely and moved on with my life. If that would have become a criminal matter, and I sentenced to some punishment, I’d accept it. However bad things will still happen to humans in all sorts of circumstances.

Finally, my disdain is purely for firearm owners who damn well should know better, but let that complacency put them into situations where this could happen. if you’re going to call yourself an adult and want to own firearms, don’t be a dumbass. Secure it, check it for being loaded every time, don’t leave it out in the open where others can grab it, don’t off body carry it. If you don’t treat the responsibility seriously, maybe you shouldn’t own.

Anyway, apologies for the rambling, too little coffee wall of scree. Have a good one.

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No they don’t. At least not first timers. Well, YMMV, but drunk driving usually gets a slap on the wrist in many cases through plea deals and the like. And I don’t believe I have heard anyone suggest making it so someone loses their driving privileged for life from one DUI.

The lawmakers in the NY Metro area, surrounding suburbs and NJ disagree with you, vehemently. You are demonstrating the pitfalls of analogy. You have probably spent more time with posters trying to show why the analogy is apt than trying to make the point you intended.

Insurance is very relevant. We have liability insurance on cars because the potential damages they cause to people other than one’s self is far greater than the capacity of most negligent people to bear when sued. You are making strawman arguments here. My point is the responsibility gun owners have to people besides themselves.

The problem most advocates for gun owners have is that they fail to demonstrate why anyone should take them at their word. When people make excuses for negligence or in some cases actively encourage it (as is the nonsense people bandy about concerning “home defense”) they undermine any credibility that they support responsible behavior. As a gun owner, I want this woman to be made an example of. I don’t want to be associated with dangerous morons like that.

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Perhaps you people over there should bunch those Anti-Vaxxers and gun-nuts together and let Darwin sort the problem out.

No need to use force … just choose some god-forsaken place (Texas? Florida?) and distribute herb remedies and guns for free.

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You have to isolate them first, otherwise you will see too many innocent people with measles and gunshot wounds.

Were either Michael Brown or Eric Garner leveraging their credibility on a dedicated Facebook page to push a political agenda? I think Jamie Gilt voluntarily chose to place her own credibility up for examination, and rebuttal.

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A field test, using 22cal short rounds against a 1in pine plank produced the following results:
Solid round = dime-sized entry, quarter-sized exit
Standard hollow-point = dime-sized entry, silver-dollar-sized exit
Hollow-point filled with water and capped = board explodes

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Of course not :rolling_eyes:

Your constant struggle to make this about anything other than what it obviously is has been noted.

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I call bullshit on your stats.

I also call bullshit on your analysis. Drunkdriving doesn’t have a well funded group working hard to ensure drunk driving remains legal and/or that the amount you’re allowed to drink before driving is constantly increasing. It also doesn’t have a well funded lobby ensuring cars remain as dangerous as possible for the occupants.

You’re right, but your ire should be directed in the mirror. Most civilized states and people are fully on board with reducing BOTH drink driving AND gun deaths. You seem hellbent on maintaining gun deaths and maybe doing something about drink driving. Why the prejudice?

Happy fucking Easter. How many Americans won’t be enjoying it this year because of avoidable gun deaths?

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I feel safer already:

“Give me your money or I’ll shoot”

"Do I know you?

“No.”

“Whew.”

Maps don’t show these “really bad neighborhoods” prone to violent crime - partially because doing so is considered racist. So, it isn’t as easy to avoid them as you imply. In the Bay Area, there are a number of such areas, and Google will happily give you driving, transit and walking directions right through them. Neighborhoods can change from “nice” (or at least marginal) to “bad” in a matter of blocks.

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Drunk drivers are selfish. If they’re able to rationalise it, they know that the risk to their own person is lower if they’re drunk in their own car. Nice metal cage, crumple zones, airbags etc. … But they’re making a risk:benefit calculation for themselves alone and excluding everyone else from the equation. Thus putting others at risk for their personal benefit.

A bit like anti-vaxxers … :smirk:

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And many gun owners.

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Indeed. :laughing:

I’m just not buying into all the schadenfreude and demands for retribution over an act of stupidity that has already had significant consequences.

When advocating firearm responsibility is actually seen as antigun, then the modern problem with gun culture becomes pretty obvious.

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The thing is, if it hadn’t had significant consequences, you’d never have heard about it. So-called, self-described ‘responsible gun owners’ do this kind of shit all the time. Nothing happens, nobody hears about it, so no one has their behaviour corrected. Your approach basically leads to never doing anything about anything ever.

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