Gun YouTuber who almost killed himself explains how it wasn't his fault

He said this didn’t match the predicted failure mode, but I don’t know if they took all the material properties into account.

Here’s a little primer on screw threads. There are two mating parts, internal (female) and external (male). To mate, they share a common profile. Simplistically the outermost diameter of the external thread is called the major diameter, and the innermost diameter of the internal thread is called the minor diameter. Note that a thread profile does not yield sharp V shapes, they are truncated for strength and clearance. The tips of the threads have ‘crest flats’, while the depths have ‘root flats’. The bump-to-bump width of one thread is called pitch, and the amount the thread travels in one full rotation is called lead (they’re the same in this case.)

Allowances are defined so that there’s enough clearance between parts to allow for assembly.

The strength of a thread under tension (pulling apart) is determined by the “length of engagement”, which is how deep the external thread is engaged with the internal thread. At some depth the thread is as strong as it’s going to get, and that’s called the minimum length of engagement. The calculation usually yields somewhere between 4.5 and 9 turns of the thread, but that’s only a rough average and depends on a lot of factors, including the material strength. Also note that big coarse threads are not necessarily stronger than shallow fine threads.

All other things being equal, internal threads are slightly stronger than the mating external threads, because the bulk of their material is nearer the major diameter. The major diameter’s circumference is larger than the minor diameter’s, and so each turn is longer and has more material than at the minor diameter, therefore more strength.

He’s adamant in claiming the cap was heat treated to a hardness of C-30. Case hardening treats the outer layer of the metal, giving it a very hard skin. This is normally done to prevent wear. It’s also valuable for cutting tools, which will keep a sharp edge much longer.

Case hardening is done by heating the metal to a certain temperature then rapidly quenching it. The outermost layer becomes very hard but brittle so the surface of the part is extremely resistant to wear; while leaving the inner core softer, more elastic and tougher so that it structurally absorbs shocks (critically important for this application.) If it helps, visualize it as a layer of really hard paint, 0.030 thick, extending beneath the surface of the original part.

And so his description is still weird to me. Case hardened parts are extremely difficult to machine, because the outer surface is as hard as the tools used to cut it. The normal way to thread a case hardened part is to cut the thread after it’s been heat treated. During the initial process of turning the part on the lathe, you’d normally turn the threaded portion of the part as a plain cylinder, leaving it larger than the major diameter of the thread (by adding twice the depth of the heat treatment), and then heat treat it. Afterwards you’d grind the turned diameter down to the major diameter, removing the entire case hardened layer from that area of the part. You’d then be able to cut or grind the thread in the untreated metal beneath. The threads would then have the strength of the untreated steel. And in that case, the heat treating is irrelevant because you’ve cut it away. So I don’t understand his emphasis on heat treating.

You can certainly cut the threads before heat treating, then heat treat the part, then finish the threads with a cleanup pass on a thread grinder. We used to do that for certain types of worm screws used in linear actuators, where the case hardened surface was needed to withstand the wear of decades of pushing loads. But it’s uncommon, and expensive. I suppose you could try to chase the threads with a die after heat treating, but that just seems like an efficient way to break a lot of dies, and would leave you with the weaker threads I mentioned above.

It’s also possible the breech was threaded after heat treating, but the cap was threaded before heat treating. Cutting internal threads is harder than cutting external threads, so they might have tapped the cap first, heat treated it, then run a die through it to clean it up. That could lead to an interesting mix of materials.

We can see from the third video that the cap threads did not fail; it was the threads on the breech that were sheared off near the minor diameter (the bottom of the V on an external thread.) Therefore the cap was stronger than the breech, as expected.

He said the threads didn’t match the predicted failure mode, but I think they did; they were sheared off just above the minor diameter of the breech threads. And he said the cap is made of 4140 steel, heat treated to C-30. I have to assume the barrel is also 4140 and also underwent the same heat treatment.

A 12 pitch thread has a lead of 0.083 inches. The root flat of a 1.5-12 UNF-2A thread is 0.0104. C-30 case hardening is 0.030 deep, leaving 0.013 inches of untreated metal per pitch at the root (actually less because of the 60 degree angle of the flank.) That leaves only about 15% of the material at the minor diameter untreated. It will be extremely hard but brittle, sapping it of the ductility needed to absorb hard shocks. A little higher than the minor diameter, but still below the pitch diameter, the case hardened layers would meet in the middle and become 100% of the material, with no untreated metal left for strength. That stress line would likely be the weakest path through the thread profile.

Now look at the shear line on those breech threads.

Finally, the length of engagement, which is not a calculation I performed here. I count 4 threads on the barrel, which seems close to the minimum; but that may have been ok for this application to meet its rated load. I simply don’t have enough info to know.

But if there’s any of the case hardened layer present in the thread profile, the ordinary computations based only on untreated 4140 might not have been sufficient.

And if the cap’s threads were hardened, but the breech’s threads weren’t, the sharp corners at the bottom of the Vs of the minor diameter of the cap might have acted like a sharp broaching tool and cut off the softer untreated metal of the breech threads. The more I think about this, the more likely I think is.

It does bother me the gun designer didn’t already have those calculations right in front of him from when he designed it. And given the (now apparent) variability of the ammunition loads, it seems that whatever he computed for length of engagement has nowhere near the safety margins needed for the task.

Disclaimer: I’m an engineer who wrote a thread form calculator for a precision grinding machine shop a very long time ago.

16 Likes

Oh-righty, had a chance to listen (which turned out to only be half as long as the whole video). I also listened to the video to Scott recounting the event up to the failure. I think this Rex guy had a good "educated guess’, but there are a lot of good “educated guesses” that don’t turn out to be the cause of something. He still left me with questions on how it would explain everything we saw. He also talked about the 82,000psi number, which later was said to be an error as to what the threads are rated for.

He said it was within the muzzle device. Which I agree could happen. And I agree even minor obstructions can cause big pressure spikes. Though as a reminder, the muzzle brake doesn’t actually touch the bullet.

But prior to the last round fired, a regular jacketed AP round was fired, and they even found that round half way out of the fire hydrant, so it clearly exited. So I do not see how a regular round being shot out could have not blown out any obstruction large enough to cause a pressure spike that that gun couldn’t handle. If it was that large, then it should have blown up with the higher pressured AP round, vs the lower pressure SLAP round.

However, I am not so confident that I would bet money in saying there was no obstruction, or that it played NO role in the failure. It could be a combination that includes obstruction, metal fatigue/failure, and/or a round with the wrong powder charge.

I agree, though there are other reasons one could have inconsistent accuracy and velocity. Anyone ever shooting Remington’s “Golden Bullets” in .22lr knows what I am talking about. There also was no mention of the rounds having any symptoms of being over pressurized, like popped primers. But that isn’t necessarily going to exist every time.

Depends where he got the ammo. Second hand from the internet, probably not in original box, and not with the sniper manual this guy pulled out? Before this event, 99% of the keyboard commandos (including me) had never heard of this warning with this exotic ammo. So it is entirely possible he had no idea until afterwards. It isn’t nearly the common knowledge of “Don’t mix up S&W .40 with 9mm, or .300blk with 5.56mm.” Before this, if someone had a SLAP round at a range and offered to let me shoot it, and they had on a muzzle brake, I’d probably try it because I would have been unaware of the issue.

I again can’t say one way or another. It looks like a big breech cap to me, and lots of metal around the breech (which did survive). If you look at traditional bolt, it is usually 3 lugs (give or take) that lock into the receiver. But lugs can and do break off when over pressurized. You’re not alone in your criticism of it, but there are many who say it is a sound design, and I haven’t really heard of other failures. If you are correct about the obstruction, and the pressure was indeed in the 150,000+ psi range, then I am not sure how much better another design would have fared.

Yeah, I agree we can’t compare different designs based on material use alone.

The third video I posted above shows that Mark Serbu, the designer of the gun, has it and gave it an initial once over. He hasn’t released a detailed examination AFAIK. But I saw in the replies to Rex’s video that he did see his video, and while not stating he agreed with him, thanked him for his rational, informed opinion and wanted to give him a call. So he is at least aware of this hypothesis. And trust me, if Serbu can put 100% of the blame on the wrong type of ammo to use with his muzzle braked gun, and nothing is wrong with the design, he will do so.

Why would it be illegal to shoot a privately owned, obviously old and obsolete fire hydrant?

Because if you are shooting an AP round, you want to shoot something that can actually show off what it can do. Shooting soft steel like that doesn’t carry the same dangers of shooting soft steel with lead bullets that can splash back. In the video you can see it punches a neat hole in and out.

2 Likes

The contention there is that there’s no indication that Scott checked, he says in his own video he inspected for a barrel obstruction. And identified several shots, which we see in the video that were “hotter”. And whether an obstructed barrel or something else, they clearly were over pressured.

I think the more important point from Rex is that the safe thing to do at that point is stop. Until you know what’s going on.

In terms of the information and “no idea till afterwards” along with all the depends on where the ammo came from. It took a poster here practically no time at all to uncover this information. Lighting off ammo you do not know the state of, or details of. Is dangerous.

In terms of experimenting with ammo, whether testing old ammo, the weirder ends of hand loadings or just making big boom. There appears to be a lot of research involved. And it definitely seems to be preferred to use a weapon that’s known to be stronger than a normal commercial action.

If the usual thing is for a for a gun to be designed to handle at least twice the expected pressure of the round that’s supposed to go in it.

My understanding is that for something like this, you want way more than that. And you want the sort of safeties this doesn’t appear to have so a failure doesn’t go this way.

You certainly want to avoid unknowns like a documented warning not to put a particular bullet in a particular gun. That information was discoverable, pretty quickly as it turned out. Apparently taught in at least one class on high caliber long range shooting.

That rifle may be entirely fine for normal shooting with standard ammo.

But this guy wasn’t doing normal shooting with standard ammo.

That’s my point. He was going about it the wrong way. He didn’t do his research, didn’t know how to go about it safely. Even if everything he said was true, and everyone else here is wrong. He still stuck ammo he didn’t know enough about into a gun. And continued to do so after experiencing problems.

That is dangerous. That is his fault. All the rest of it is just unpacking exactly why, and in which ways it was avoidable.

5 Likes

To the tune of 40k Americans per year? Even in aggregate? Nah.

6 Likes

Relevant story is relevant

8 Likes

black and white sam GIF

3 Likes

As a non-American, my first thought when I see pretty much any of these ammo-sexual YouTube channels is “WHY THE FUCK DO CIVILIANS HAVE ACCESS TO MILITARY HARDWARE???”

Seriously, what reason do people have for having a 50-cal??

10 Likes

Something something freedoms! And because the NRA is very good at lobbying and advertising a certain lifestyle to a certain kind of people.

13 Likes

Now I’m having visions of some guy trying to figure out what calibre a fire hydrant is, and how much charge to use.

7 Likes

I blame the shooter who, having observed that previous rounds are acting strangely (accuracy), continues to fire them.

8 Likes

It was still designed as a replica of a military rifle. (And yes, it’s not a replica in terms of breech design,blah blah.) Its only point is to give civilians the chance to feel like soldiers by using a pared-down version of their “toys”, not much differently from a tactical baby carrier.

10 Likes

I think that this is covered under the Constitution Shits & Giggles Amendment; also known as the Accident & Emergency or Emergency Room Amendment.

6 Likes
4 Likes

More specifically, it was designed as a way to skirt/tr0ll laws in certain U.S. jurisdictions that prohibit civilian ownership or sale of weapons that fire .50 BMG ammo. That this dangerous stunt piece ends up only being useful as a military anti-materiel long-range sniper rifle (one that real soldiers wouldn’t fool with – they prefer the tried and tested Barrett M82) is a bonus for these man-child wannabe freedumb fighters.

Except for the very narrow and controlled class of competitive marksmen who want to hit targets over 1000 yards away, there’s no legitimate use case for a civilian to own any weapon that can fire this ammo.

6 Likes

Heh. I never said that he was a responsible owner. And with the added knowledge that he’s selling t-shirts? Yeah, he’s learned nothing from his brush with death.

depends on the size and model of fire hydrant, really.- You’d also want to wrap it in a sabot for your (literal) cannon or morter that you are loading it into. (which are, oddly enough, also legal in the US- There’s a guy in Alaska who built a canon specifically to fire old bowling balls…)

3 Likes

Pretty much shits and giggles. The “purpose” for these types of civilian rifles is very long range target shooting, on the order of thousands of yards. Though that does not require (or even prefer) .50cal.

The technicality of it is that our regulations kinda cap out at at .50cal, anything larger than that is a destructive device that’s much more heavily regulated. So .50bmg is the biggest boom you can somewhat easily get.

The ammo on the other hand you aren’t supposed to have. Incendiary and tracer rounds are regulated as an explosive, and both those and armor piercing rounds are banned in chunks of the country. It’s military ammo, so if it wasn’t specifically sold as surplus (which seems unlikely) it may be illegal to buy sell or possess.

I would say designed to emulate.

I think you might have misread that. .50bmg is legal, and predates the law that makes things larger than .50 caliber more restricted. And nothing about the rifle is designed to skirt anything. It’s just it could be reclassified on the regulatory level, because it is technically very slightly larger than .50 caliber. It would still be legal in much of the US if they did. It would just require federal licensing.

ETA: I should clarify. The regulations in question look at the gun/device. Not the ammo. The bullet here is a tiny bit larger than .50 caliber. Though like I said I’m pretty sure tracers and incendiary ammo the cartridge itself counts as an explosive device.

Most of the interest people have in these things is still along the lines of shooting the big boy bullet that the big boy soldiers shoot, or the fixation on shooting the absolute largest, loudest gun possible.

3 Likes

Very long range shooting. And it was this bench rest hobby of bolt actions and a guy thinking he could come up with shoulder fired semi auto .50cal that was a cottage industry before it became part of the military as we know it. (WWI had some .50cal anti-tank rifles, but their accuracy was just good enough to hit the broad side of a tank.)

The Barrett rifles the military now uses were originally created for the civilian market and at the time they didn’t see the usefulness in such a rifle. To them, the .50cal was only good for machine gun use. It took several years before they were finally adopted.

But in reality, there are very few fire arms that couldn’t be considered “military hardware”. All those “bolt action deer rifles I don’t have a problem with” are based on or are derivatives of the Mauser and Springfield rifle designs. The tilted barrel semi-automatic handgun was most famously used in the 1911. Single action revolvers? Lever action rifles? All used in the military. So, you know, trying to separate “good” and “bad” based on military service, it is a fools errand.

You would be surprised how many people enjoy shooting who have nothing to do with the NRA.

That rifle isn’t like any thing in the military other than using the same round. If using the same round as standard NATO or Warsaw Pact ammo makes it a “replica” of a military firearm, that is probably 80% of new guns sold today.

But your final two sentences are doing a lot of work painting with a very broad brush.

So if you don’t invest $10,000 into a serious competitive kit, you shouldn’t even try shooting 1000 yards with a .50? Or closer if that is the range you have? That seems pretty elitist. The one thing that bugs me is people being OK with exotic, expensive things owned by rich people. But if something like that ends up into an average person’s hands, then obviously they have no “legitimate use”.

Right. The only thing it is made to skirt is a high price tag.

ETA:

I don’t believe either of them are considered explosives and are federally legal. Some states ban one or both. I know tracers are easier to find, but very view places let you use them due to the fire hazard. “Dragon’s Breath” shot gun shells have been on the market for years. But again, unless you’re on your own land, no one wants you to shoot them at their range.

1 Like

I don’t think anyone here is OK with exotic guns being owned by rich people either.

4 Likes

Misread what? The linked Wiki article that states:

In the United States, Washington, D.C. disallows registration of .50 BMG rifles, thus rendering civilian possession unlawful.[27][28] California prohibits the private purchase of a rifle capable of firing the .50 BMG through the .50 Caliber BMG Regulation Act of 2004.[29] Connecticut specifically bans the Barrett 82A1 .50 BMG rifle.[30] However, .50 BMG rifles registered prior to the enacted bans remain lawful to possess in California[28][31] and Connecticut.[28][32] Maryland imposes additional regulations on the sale and transfer of .50 BMG rifles and other “regulated firearms”, and limits purchases of any firearm within this class to one per month, but does not impose registration requirements or any form of categorical ban.[28]

For reference, DC and the states listed are what I was referring to when I mentioned “certain jurisdictions”.

The barrel is designed to skirt the [quoting the Wiki again] .50 inch maximum allowed for non-sporting Title I firearms under the U.S. National Firearms Act, which informs some jurisdictions’ classification of the rifles. That’s why it’s so tight and finicky and not a good item to put in the hands of morons who don’t understand basic safety protocols (esp. considering that the actual ammo is banned in most places, meaning that the stuff still floating around out there is of questionable provenance).

For further reference, the barrel of the weapon != the ammo fired out of the weapon, which is why I specified “weapons that fire .50 BMG ammo”. That’s what are regulated by the jurisdictions listed above.

Ammosexuals like Sebru are offended that any firearm is banned in the Land o’ the Second Amendment. This isn’t the first time Sebru has pulled a stunt like this, either. IIRC, he designed a very powerful pistol knowing it would be banned but that it would also be attractive for police departments. When the cops showed up looking to buy it, he huffily declared that he wouldn’t sell any weapon that couldn’t be purchased by a civilian to a police department

Similar to people who talk as much or more than they listen closely to others, his pistols and rifles are as much or more political statements than they are practical or useful weapons for American civilians of any income level (long-range target shooters aside).

3 Likes

That’s because they’re designed to do just that. I am well aware that you can run rings around me arguing technicalities around the history and technology of this particular rifle and .50 cal sniper rifles in general but the point is that this particular guy and most people owning these rifles do so because they want to cosplay tacticool operators. Arguing that the type of rifle was originally created for the civilian market or debating the legality of the bullet vs the rifle does not negate that. Hence my “blah blah”.

10 Likes