so we should have an answer in about 3 years as it goes though the federal courts, that the republican senate has now filled with 100+ judges of their own
my gosh RBG, hang on, hang on, we need to wrap her in bubble-wrap, is she doesn’t make it at least two more years this country is done
White House Thunderdome? Sounds good…
I’d love to know if the House can do much more than angrily shake their fists after this passes the full House vote. Criminal charges get referred to - wait for it - the DOJ for enforcement, and a Trump pardon can make them go away. And I doubt civil damages will make much of a difference.
It’s a shit sandwich any way you slice it.
I’m imagining Barr dangling helplessly from a bungy cord as AOC dives from the roof of the Thunderdome to deliver the finishing move. [Crowd roars]
History is not particularly encouraging.
On June 28, 2012, Holder became the first U.S. Attorney General in history to be held in both criminal and civil contempt. He was held, by a bipartisan vote, in contempt by the House of Representatives in a 255–67 vote
In September 2012, after a nineteen-month review, the United States Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General cleared the Attorney General of any wrongdoing
In retrospective, David Weigel of Bloomberg Businessweek called the contempt of Congress vote “both popular and stunningly ineffective”.
source
“DOJ decides DOJ didn’t do anything wrong”
Contempt of congress is its own sort of thing.
The House is empowered to handle contempt charges in itself through their Sergeant at Arms. Though this hasn’t been done since the 30’s and hasn’t been common since the 1880’s.
Referring it to the justice department apparently the status quo is that they must follow it up. Though that’s not a strict legal thing and it would be challenged. Especially since the US Attorney it goes to is a former Trump Campaign functionary.
But they can also apparently file a civil suit (though I think only the Senate has done so in the past), asking the courts to enforce it directly. At which point its also out of the hands of the Executive.
The speculation is that we may be headed for option one. I’d more expect we’ll see option 3. Even if you didn’t have a Trump loyalist in that particular attorney’s office asking the DOJ to follow up on a Contempt charge against the Attorney General is just a shit show of conflict.
These are still federal charges, which Trump can override. (Not the civil charges, but money means nothing to these people.) As much as I’d love to see the Barr perp walked and tossed into a cell by the S@A, it’s simply not going to happen. As much as I want to see some real action happen here, it all feels so toothless to me. I’d love to be proven wrong.
That’s the thing though. The only pathway where there are automatically charges in the conventional sense is through the DOJ. Where they’re supposed to convene a Grand Jury and follow the usually indictment/criminal charge pathway.
In Inherent Contempt its 100% within the House, it does not involve the executive at all. The charges and trial involved there don’t run through a system that the president can “override”. And there’s this nugget:
Presidential pardons appear not to apply to a civil contempt procedure such as the above, since it is not an “offense against the United States” or against “the dignity of public authority.”
That could be tested in court. But there’s an awful lot of clear precedent for the process and there’s not considered to be much legal ground for the president to interfere at all.
In the civil suit model you’re again side stepping the executive, and more importantly you aren’t running through criminal courts or technically charging anyone. I don’t think the president can override court ordered sanctions from contempt orders. Because again you aren’t neccisarily being charged or convicted. And the fines and jailing that result are not a punishment in situations like this, its an attempt to compel testimony. Its also executed by the US Marshal’s service which is an arm of the courts not part of the DOJ.
As to whether the president can pardon something like that seems to be something that hasn’t come up much. It was an issue in the Arpaio pardon, but that wasn’t a “we’re gonna hold you in jail till you testify” sort of contempt, and even the eventual decisions dealing with it seemed to have laid out a case against Presidential ability to interfere in contempt sanctions even as they let the pardon stand. So it seems like its an issue of whether one is being charged and convicted of criminal contempt. Or if one is held in contempt by a court order as a temporary, non-punitive thing or not. Because:
Again
Presidential pardons appear not to apply to a civil contempt procedure such as the above, since it is not an “offense against the United States” or against “the dignity of public authority.”
Here’s the statute: 2 U.S. Code § 192 - Refusal of witness to testify or produce papers | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute. It’s pretty cut and dry:
Contempt of Congress is defined in statute, 2 U.S.C.A. § 192, enacted in 1938, which states that any person who is summoned before Congress who “willfully makes default, or who, having appeared, refuses to answer any question pertinent to the question under inquiry” shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a maximum $1,000 fine and 12 month imprisonment.
How is this any deterrent? A $1000 fine is laughable. 12 months sitting in a locked office in the Capitol building? I just don’t see this happening.
It seems to me like these charges are more designed to bring about shame and compel someone to produce documents or testify so they don’t harm their reputation. However, Trump and his people have shown time and time again that they have no shame and don’t care about their reputation or legacy.
Where’s the power to do anything truly meaningful either punitively or preclusively? Because I’m sure not seeing it.
Barr gives whores a bad name.
Throw him in the Congressional jail. I claim executive privilege over whether or not a key exists once you’re behind bars Barr.
Yeah if it goes through the DOJ and is charged as a crime.
But both Inherent Contempt and the civil suit approach don’t inherently involve charging a crime under that statute. Contempt of Congress is not based on that statute. But instead a common law extension of Congress’ constitutional powers, repeatedly validated by the Supreme court. Contempt of Congress and Inherent Contempt predate that statute by around 180 years. And it looks like it was put in place as part of the alternative, modern refer to the DOJ model developed in the 30’s.
Inherent Contempt and the civil suit pathways can go with civil contempt. Where you don’t charge and convict a crime or pass a sentence. But instead use an open ended coercive approach to compel compliance. Open ended jail time and recurring or escalating fines.
To just pull an example from the news Chelsea Manning has not been tried, charged or convicted of contempt of court. But she was held in contempt by order of the presiding judge. And is now being held in jail until such a time as she complies with the subpoena. She is not serving a fixed prison term (or even technically in prison I think), there is no single fixed statutory fine.
Are designed to provide a punishment after the fact. Contempt is complicated. Aside from the difference between civil and criminal contempt, there’s direct and indirect. And contempt of Congress is its own thing entirely.
What you’re pointing to is criminal contempt, punishment for the crime of contempt. Which is often times pretty mild.
Inherent Contempt or taking it to a civil court lets you go the civil contempt route that the Executive has no role in, and where sanctions to compel cooperation are broad and open ended. Congress through Inherent Contempt has really broad powers to go either route, and even if they chose to impose criminal sentence they wouldn’t necessarily be bound by the regular criminal statute and said punishment may not be pardonable. As agressive as that is there’s very little the White House can do to impact it. And the limit on Congress’ ability to do this is mostly their inability to keep it going or enforce penalties beyond the term of congress where they’re imposed (which seems to be the reason we came up with alternatives).
This.
I am so f-ing tired of the shitshow that is partisan politics.
Heaven forbid that people should actually vote conscientiously and not strictly along party lines…
This is why we need more parties (or guillotines)…
Trump has contempt for everyone, himself included. Pretty much the only emotion he knows, besides envy that is. He wouldn’t be caught dead having to actually interact with that MAGA crowd.
GREAT Way to kick of a new career as AG – With a criminal record !
Inherent!
That’s the point of inherent contempt; it bypasses the DoJ entirely.
Both of my grandmothers ended up in nursing homes and ultimately general decline after injuries from simple falling. I’ve joked (sadly) with my mom that we need to invent some sort of strap on pillows for elderly people to prevent the initial injuries. Bubble wrap might work.
Nope. Pelosi is never going to let them actually enforce the contempt charge and has said as much.
