There’s room for you to stop and consider what is an appropriate joke.
You decided to make a joke telling women what they like and appreciate when it comes to lessening their value in society.
How would that sit with you?
Hostile much? Yes, I would have to look up her last name, big deal. That was the point, I don’t have it memorized, so I would have to look it up. Why would I have it memorized? I never said I wouldn’t google it, if I needed to say it. I just said that her name isn’t as intuitive Catgrin said it was. I don’t know how that is an issue.
And, while I don’t really get the hash tag gamersgate brouhaha, I didn’t think that Anita Sarkeesian (yes, I had to scroll up to spell that) had anything to do with it… Maybe she does. No clue. In don’t follow this, it isn’t a topic/cause I’m horribly invested or interested in. I don’t know why, though, not having one internet persons name’s spelling memorized would paint me unsympathetically. Do you have MY name memorized?
Further, you completely missed my point. It was on gender naming conventions, and how stupid they are. No confusion on my part there, they are stupid. Talk about a book by Steinbeck, then talk about one by Austin or Gilman, and marvel at the confusion, even if your using one name scheme consistently. Women need their first name, men don’t. And that is silly. Unless you don’t think so…
I know I get baffled when people start talking about LeGuin or Atwood. WHO COULD THEY MEAN? WHY CAN’T WE ALL JUST SAY MARGARET?!?
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An article about Anita Sarkeesian’s place in this topic is directly linked to from the Gamasutra article that caused the Gaters to force Intel to pull their advertising. The link appears in this sentence:
All of us should be better than this. You should be deeply questioning your life choices if this and this and this are the prominent public face your business presents to the rest of the world.
It’s located at the second “this”. (My bolds - in place of hotlinks.)
If you plan to discuss this intelligently, you might try reading the article first. If instead, you aren’t that interested - why are you wasting everyone’s time?
Could it (shock and horror) be that you’re just here driving trollies?
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Actually, people do get a bit baffled. Go talk to some people who talks about books (my girlfriend has a degree in lit, so this is/was common for her), then talk about Hemingway and Gilman… Which name will they ask for clarification on? More nerdy, how often do you hear “Le Guin” vs. “Heinlein”? She generally is refered to by her full name " Ursula Le Guin", while Heinlein is generally just Heinlein.
In general conversation we default to last names for males, and first and last names for females. It is a curious fact. And the only reason I can really think of for it is to show the feminine first name, so we know were talking about a woman. It is a tiny bit, of mostly overlooked, discrimination (I’m not sure if that is the right term, “inequality” might be better).
Wow… Why are you trying to jump down my throat? I didn’t even comment on the topic, just that the spelling of her name might not be common knowledge. I don’t understand at all how the hell that could be taken for trolling.
Don’t be so quick to judge, really, life is better that way. I’m also sorry I’m wasting your time… Obviously arguing on about video games on a forum is serious business, I wouldn’t want to interrupt that with my views or silly observations… I should let the adults do their thing.
Actually, yes you did.
You directly said that you didn’t know what place Sarkeesian held in this whole “brouhaha” or if she even held one. I provided you with the link to something you should have already read that would tell you exactly what her place is. You have a long history on BB, so you aren’t a sock puppet - so maybe you’re just that lazy.
I didn’t even bother (because I always try to be nice) to point out that in the same comment you claimed it would be “easy” to spell “Nietsche” if you spoke German, you misspelled it. You’re really batting .1000.
You’re wasting my time because you know nothing about the thing you’re talking a lot about. Go read up a bit on it first. Find out what happened before you sit around arguing side issues.
BTW - You got a couple other things wrong. Ursula K. Le Guin is typically referred to that way - using her middle initial. That’s the way she refers to herself. It’s the name she writes under.
The question at hand wasn’t about using a full name anyway. That’s not a problem. The question was about using a first name only.
Does anyone in your girlfriend’s literary group of friends call the 85 year-old Le Guin “Ursula”? Because that was the complaint made here.
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I did misspell Nietzsche, you are correct, though amusingly I copied the spelling from your post. I’ll own that, and be a bit ashamed, since I did go to school for that kind of stuff. Though my spelling is horrible, and I need to look up tons of things pretty much all the time.
You’re right, I admitted ignorance to something. Obviously that is akin to trolling, and not intellectual honesty. I might be lazy, or this might just not be a topic that I find horribly important on the grand scale of things. My time is limited, and I can only research so much in depth. This isn’t one of those topics. As I earlier stated, I don’t get it. Not because of a lack of research, but more because I just can’t wrap my head around it due to a cultural gap springing from either age, or social upbringing, or general value system… It “makes me feel old”, as I originally posted here.
I didn’t make any sort of positive or negative statement about Sarkeesian, I just confessed ignorance, and mentioned that the spelling of her name isn’t innate knowledge to some people, and that it isn’t a “normal” name. I was commenting on her as a NOUN and not a person, I suppose. So my ignorance to her place in this whatnot isn’t important to the thing I was commenting on. Spending time researching it wouldn’t matter. This hubbub is now about a small tangential mention, which was completely neutral in tone.
You’re right about Le Guin’s middle initial of course. That was an oversight on my part, and really doesn’t matter. The last bit about female names was a tangent, I like tangents. I’m very good at them. Though it wasn’t really that tangential, since it was on societal naming norms of prominent women. I’m sorry the specifics aren’t the same, but it does highlight that as a general trend, and thus it is generally relevant.
Also, John Steinbeck referred to himself, and indeed authored books under the name “John Steinbeck”, but people refer to him naturally as just “Steinbeck”. Ditto with Heinlein, his books are all penned under Robert A. Heinlein, but he is generally referred to as just “Heinlein”. So why isn’t she just Le Guin. Or Austin, or Gilman, Alcott, or Lee, or Eliot?
To clarify here, I’m not trying to troll, I’m not trying to pick a fight. Please don’t read those in to my posts. I only really wanted to comment on her name (not her, her name) not being as easy as it seems. Perhaps slightly tangentially. I don’t have a horse in this fight. If I’m wasting your time, then don’t read me. That is your right, but I find it a bit a bit condescending for you to really speak for everyone’s time, and my place in this discussion. Rude, even. This is a public discussion, everyone is welcome to their piece, I hope. If not, this place is worth bugger all.
We do first-name our presidents in Brazil, male or female. Or famous-nickname them, of course (as in Pelé or Lula). Cultural thing, I guess.
Edit: No, Pelé was never president. But you get the idea.
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This thread (see title) is about an article (already provided to you) located at an online site (Gamasutra) that caused a group of people (Operation Disrespectful Nod) to then organize online and target a company (Intel) in emails so forcefully that that company pulled an existing ad campaign from the site. The site had made no specious claims.
If you:
- Don’t have enough interest to read the source article.
- Don’t know about the topic at hand.
- Don’t know about any of the people involved.
and
Then WHY are you even here other than to waste other people’s time? I won’t be replying to you on this topic again, because you aren’t worth my time.
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That’s far more common in Spanish-speaking countries, and tends to be with very well known actors and politicians. Culturally, it’s also true that in Japan people introduce themselves using family name first. So Zoe Quinn would become Quinn Zoe. People call each other by last name until familiarized - using first names is a sign of closeness.
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Inversely, using a title and a last name to address someone sounds formal to the point of affectation for most Brazilians, in most social situations. Congress hearing? Sure. A child greeting their schoolteacher? Kind of weird. Yay for diversity. 
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Because I don’t really care about YOUR time. Why should I? Perhaps someone else finds what I’m saying interesting, maybe not you, because everyone isn’t you. I have as much right to state my opinions as you do. Sure, my comment to you wasn’t literally 100% on topic in the most pedantic and super-specific way; that doesn’t matter since everything touches on other things. And sometimes those other, somewhat related, things are far more interesting than the actual topic. I don’t find the main topic interesting since it isn’t based on anything but a hashtag, and a term that we all should realize is completely meaningless (“gamer”, see my first comment in this thread). To me this is FAR more interesting than the usual OMG GAMERS ARE PIGS topic, or more of people defending or bashing youtube celebrities again, just like they do once a week, and we all somehow decide its newsworthy.
I’m glad I’m not “worth your time*”…
What a rude comment. And I really hope it doesn’t reflect the attitudes of the rest of this community.
Back on topic, I found the Gamasutra article to be fairly respectful in tone, well substantiated and entirely grounded in reality. Sure, there’s always something to disagree or criticize in opinion pieces, but the hysterical levels of backlash only strengthen the anti-this-whole-hypocritical-bullshit argument the article makes in the first place.
Same goes for Sarkeesian’s videos I’ve watched and whatever Rock Paper Shotgun’s writers, bless their common sense, said that angered these extremists so much. Perfect? No. Rings all the more true all the time? Yes.
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I heard it claimed that in French universities, in the aftermath of the Paris uprising of May 1968, students and professors would address each other by first name .
Being familiarized and close are not the same thing.
Most people in these forums casually refer to “Xeni” “Mark” and “Cory” even though they’ve never met (nor probably communicated directly with) them. We are familiar with them, but we are not close.
In a whole host of threads about Zoe Quinn, it is quite possible that posters who have become familiar with the topic at hand might refer to persons of interest by their first name and not mean it disrepectfully.
I believe this is theoretical; I am not aware of having done so myself, although I don’t rule out the possibility.
IF somebody wishes to postulate that it is always disrepectful to refer to somebody by their first name, I would offer a friendly Bronx cheer, and wish them well with their revolution.
###If I can’t laugh, it’s not my revolution.
Or, to paraphrase more closely:
I do not believe that a Cause which stands for a beautiful ideal, for release and freedom from convention and prejudice, should demand the denial of life and joy.
And, in closing, I’m quitting this thread, and going into politics.
Anybody who’s interested can look for me on the Y’All Is Too Damn Serious Party ticket.
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That’s the problem with the success of the OND campaign against Intel and Gamasutra. The article they complained about wasn’t only fair, it was well-resourced. Nothing said was designed to be overly antagonistic, but there’s just no way to say “this is a negative thing” without (at some point) simply saying it. Even so, it was made quite clear that the author wasn’t speaking about the gaming community at-large, but only about a subset whose activities and attitudes hurt public perception.
@FoolishOwl I had two types of professors - those who I only ever referred to by last name, and those who insisted I use their first name. (The second type were typically Humanities professors.)
Also, there’s a difference between meeting someone and knowing their preference for address, and just calling a professional by their first name. The difference being called out here is that the women (journalists and game designers) are being called by their first name by people who don’t know them - and didn’t even know who they were before this topic arose. They have no familiarity, but they’re using the familiar form of their name when they wouldn’t do that with a man.
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Xeni is her user name.
Cory Doctorow refers to himself as “Cory”.
At this site, they have created that familiarity.
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Sure, it’s a cultural thing. Even between the USA and Britain (where I am) the use of first names is different. Americans (North Americans, that is) tend to use given names in circumstances where a Brit wouldn’t.
But still, use of first names for women where one would use full or surnames for men is a gender bias, and should be called out. What one does about it is up to the individual, of course, but denial or excuses are weak sauce.
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The legions of GG trollies who talk about “Zoe” and “Anita” are not, I would wager, friendly acquaintances who sometimes have two-way conversations on matters of personal interest with the women in question.
Assuming unearned and unwanted familiarity with women is a HALLMARK of sexism 101 - “treat women like they are inferiors, children, or even non-human.” See also referring to women one is talking to as “hon,” “sweetie,” “babe,” etc.
And it’s not just men who do it. Terri Gross on Fresh Air and others of her staff will do it now and then, and it makes me literally scream with rage - she’ll interview a woman and then at the break announcement, will say “Sara’s new TV show, airing Thursdays, blah blah blah” but she sure as hell never calls her BFF “Matthew” when she talks about him - it’s always “Weiner.” (To his face, sure, but that’s not unreasonable in her interview format.)
Using first names or last names is appropriate in English-speaking cultures based on context. Journalism, academic writing, news, and other formal contexts require last names, except that the rule sometimes gets broken, and almost always for women. Look at how often Miley Cyrus is referred to as “Miley” by both print and a/v journalism, but Justin Beiber is almost always “Beiber” unless the context is one of those super-informal chatty “E! Magazine” type shows.
A post in a BBS isn’t a formal context per se, but do people writing in gaming forums talk about “Sid” or “Meier”? Do they talk about “David” or “Jones”? (Boy, if you think there’s a lot of other people called to mind by “Quinn,” you should try “Jones”!) And OMG, Sarkeesian has a non-Western last name… however can people cope? Well I’m pretty sure they managed it with the Final Fantasy guys and their wacky Japanese last names.
Basic respect, rather than this pally double standard, is really not that hard and is certainly not a Mean Ol’ Frowny Feminist request.
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