It’s a misnomer to think anarchism is even an issue here. No statement by any of Jake’s alleged victims have brought up anarchist principles. Contrary to what shava23 seems to believe, a significant portion of the hacker and security communities are not anarchist in the slightest (I’m not nor is most of my hackerspace). It’s a complete derail to divert this conversation to some kind of anarchist group confession and mediation exercise for the cadres.
I know, but a local chapter of a collective I volunteer to help out with (mostly homeless outreach) had a new person attempt to join, reports from the state he moved from indicated that he was repeatedly trying to get minors drunk and creep on persons. This behavior is not “mediated”, it’s taken very seriously.
I’m guessing shava23 hangs around more the AnCap bitcoins-for-everyone crowd than actual anarchists.
But, yes, you’re right. Every fucking thread about some rapey fuck this week has gotten derailed by some concern troll, it seems.
Again, there is a standard of innocence, and excising people from a group generally doesn’t involve international media and so much collateral damage. No they don’t universally mediate.
But when the international headlines devolve to leaking personnel documents from employees who were on board for very short terms, for probably reasons, it starts looking like an attack on the organization as much as on Jake. I am not that familiar with Jake, as I’ve said – he was new when I left. But the idea that this is being used to take down Tor (“Tor Project Board Knew Of Allegations Against Jacob Appelbaum For Over A Year” with leaked documents, other documents from same employee recently leaked) is starting to make this look more and more like pressure on the organization more than Jake.
The pressure in the media coming around on Tor pretty much clinches that, as we heard a lot of protest that this wasn’t about Tor, oh no, just a few days ago. That people were depending on Shari.
That lasted 48h.
You know and support some people, who while I will not say they are shitty, show some very compromised judgments.
They have said they do not trust state solutions. There are non-state solutions. You are bringing up a red herring.
You don’t have to be an anarchist to use the toolset. It’s a logical fallacy – you are mistaking an ideology for a set of tools. People use non-state mediation, and formal non-violence tools, outside of the state framework all the time.
I know you may not recognize those as voluntary association or anarchist uses, but some of us do.
But hey, nice try to discredit things by making the term anarchist sound scary or ideologically all encompassing.
I’m not sure you can have a prominent member of group go down without the possibility of collateral damage. It’s a really crappy place to be in when you’ve been mistreated, and realize you are going to open up your life to scrutiny just by bringing your accusations forward. The flip side is the accused abuser sometimes brings his affiliations into question as well.
I’m not sure you can have a prominent member of group go down without the possibility of collateral damage. It’s a really crappy place to be in when you’ve been mistreated, and realize you are going to open up your life to scrutiny just by bringing your accusations forward. The flip side is the accused abuser sometimes brings his affiliations into question as well.
I actually don’t disagree with any of that. But if you saw
Fugly, right? And you sound far more certain about this than a lot of folks out there, including me. I just don’t know how that can be resolved, tropo.
A friend of mine practically died laughing when I said this was the situation that the word clusterfuck was invented for. It may be rude but it’s abysmally apropos.
I’m stepping aside. The time for a Fair Witness is well past. The statement from Jill breaks the Spiral of Silence (Spiral of silence - Wikipedia), I expect.
I don’t need to stand here as lightning rod any longer than necessary, frankly. I’m glad to see Jill’s statement. Now people will feel like they can step forward without losing every friend they have. It sucks but that’s how these things work. My essay on process, and Jill’s statement were required before people could say, we want to say something about this.
And some people of course will think that’s terrible. But they can now say that to other people.
I’m actually not certain about a lot of things.
I’m not going to paint the hacker community with a broad brush and say it is primarily Anarchistic, Socialistic, Civil Libertarian, etc, but it has been remarkably resilient. It’s lasted through a lot. I also don’t think Tor is going away because of this. There is going to be churn, turmoil, and pain, but this is not the end times.
Also I agree; The situation for many is Fugly.
No, but if we get enough people aware of the problems then we can work around it.
I’d say the same in the UK. Oxford Hackspace has a few AnComs and LibCaps, and one old Marxist, but I would guess the group is largely made up from Charles Kennedy style social democrats.
But yes, this is derailing. I really wouldn’t mind if all this stuff about anarchism (of whatever flavour) and the hacker community was split off to another thread.
That would work for me too.
Who cares? This isn’t a thread about Tor or the outcomes for that organization. Go make a thread for that if you want to discuss that. Quit derailing and drawing attention away from Jake by muddying the waters.
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