Jacob Appelbaum, Tor developer and Wikileaks staffer, resigns amid sex abuse claims

Unlike his accusers, Jake is now working with the legal system, and his lawyers probably required language in that apology. But yes, I understand your feelings about it, I looked at it cross eyed too. You can look on twitter and find two different lawyers taking it apart, one who dislikes Jake, and one who views the apology as a product of a defendant with a lawyer. The deconstructions of the language of the statement are dramatically different (you can track either from @shava23 from yesterday I think).

The damage done is to the community. The victims have chosen a route that is open ended and has no closure. They think it will provide a deterent for future sociopaths to create a strong shaming mechanism (yesterday, I think I may have coined the term ā€œschmuck-shamingā€) to keep sociopathic behavior down while not evoking state controls such as state incarceration or state violence.

While several people have used the term sociopath, several have objected, but Iā€™ll use it, and it includes a parameter: a ā€œlack of remorse,ā€ which includes a lack of shame. Putting the community on shaming defcon 99 may send bad actors into the shadows for a bit, but like roaches they will come out as everyone adjusts to the high levels, and then where do we go? The victimsā€™ efforts may not result in what they envision.

Where my criticism has drawn fire that I am trying to silence the victims, I donā€™t think this is so. I am hoping we can find a most effective way to control sociopathic behavior in our community, and prevent harm in the future, and deal with this is just and sustainable ways that ideally donā€™t end up with the wrong people in court for the wrong things.

An old friend of mine was a retired CIA analyst, and he used to chuckle that it was too bad I didnā€™t have the predilections to be an analyst, because I have that sort of mindset. Itā€™s not that I donā€™t have compassion in this situation. Itā€™s that I see it as a huge system over time, and the impacts are potentially much larger than most of the people are envisioning.

And this makes me unpopular, because all focus should be on the pain of the victims. Not the effectiveness of the victimsā€™ methods in actually achieving their goals, not the good of future victims, not the health of the culture, not the health of the ecosystem around us.

Itā€™s a loyalty and a purity test at the moment, and I do not pass the test, and I have to accept that and be a lightening rod, because no one else will, because there is so much energy in the system, and it can not be controlled.

But there has to be at least one point for dissenting messages, in the presence of a puritan movement with an unassailable banner. I am an old dry crone, this is my last act here likely, so I have no reputation to lose.

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Can you elaborate on this a bit? It seems very insular, in the sense that there is some responsibility the victims hold to the ā€œcommunityā€ over, well, frankly being victims. How is it you feel this is open ended, and closure for who exactly?

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The hacker community largely runs on anarchist lines of contract and association. I am watching places like tor-talk, cult of the dead cow and wide ranging associations go through far more than their usual periodic social paroxysms over this.

Hacktivism in part exists because we wonder about the justice of existing state justice systems ā€“ their honesty and integrity, and the wisdom upon which they are founded. We work to watch over and improve and expose flaws in those systems. When our own internal community canā€™t handle itself ethically, we have a great deal of pain because we are only held together by voluntary association.

Words, anger, persuasion, argument ā€“ but bullying and meanness ā€“ often surface in hacker circles with disagreements.

But when there are issues of consent and rape and victimization, taboos say no doubt or bad words or argument is allowed. Rape culture.

The contrast between these ways of dealing with conflict, with the idea that we have no way ā€“ since the anonymous victims will not bring their case to anarchist mediation or to court to confront Jake directly ā€“ means that anyone who doubts a victim, or who criticizes the methods used by the victim collective, is marginalized and labeled as monstrous, a pariah, anti-woman, insulted, and cut off from many friends.

As a person who has tried to be constructive in proposing mediation possibilities, who is a woman who has been the victim of rape, who has been denied restraining orders against a stalker, who has studied sociopathic behavior for a book in draft, and so on, I have experienced all these marginalizations and retaliations, and attempted to rebuild across them where possible.

But there is no closure point. The anonymous web site is aimed to keep the pressure up interminably. There is no point at which any action is planned that will bring Jake to court or to non-state consequences. Only the internal personnel process at Tor, which is administrative and will show if it does that he has personnel liability for workplace harassment, and as I understand it from my time as a nonprofit admin, will still require the aggrieved parties to go to court to apply any civil or criminal sanctions if any ā€“ which they say they will not do. The personnel inquiry from my experience with past organizationsā€™ histories could take months to a year.

How much toxicity will we experience in that time? Is this really something that only is the responsibility of the victims, to the victims? This is, of course, a transgressive question, since they are victims, but they are choosing methods which are coercive to the community in that we do not have a way to limit the accusations.

If you believe that Jake is perfectly guilty, then this is perhaps fine, if you believe that by accusation enough he can be condemned.

But if you believe in process for anyone, as we would put forth for even a war criminal, then the idea that there is this open ended conviction by accusation only is an offense against justice.

So,

The most radical thing you can do for a woman is to believe her.
Innocent until proven guilty.

Usually we can resolve these statements and say, OK, we believe the rape victim and we will arrest the suspect and we will have the trial and we will see if justice is served.

And then we comment on how badly it gets fucked up (cough Stanford cough). And then we open things up, after having presented the evidence, to the comments of the community on how justice was served or not. The furies are pretty well served if the formal justice of the state didnā€™t do a good job. The judge may even see consequences.

But here, there is no closure.

Some people will think, Jake was set up by governmental entities. By old lovers. By people creating fictions. By drama out of the BDSM community in the EU etc. I have heard all these things. They are unreasonably hardening in the siege position that Jake was a perfect gentleman (which I do not believe either). This is unreasonable.

Thinking every one of the victim stories is not inflated through pain and trauma and possible prior damage is also unreasonable. That does not mean they are false.

It means we can not afford for this to turn into black and white camps. But it is. Itā€™s turning into a litmus test. A spreading pool of acid.

In a community that normally lives in an environment of assessed risks, relativism, skepticism,-- where terms like safety,trust and security are always paired with qualifiers ā€“ we are being told that we must accept every victimā€™s story as absolute gospel truth or we are monstrous.

And that this is a template for future offenders. So who is the next person to be accused? To many this seems like a coercive power without any oversight, and that is exactly what we often set ourselves to counter.

How did we get here, and how do we resolve the situation without causing more pain?

Today I was talking to a young woman on Twitter, and I think she described it best. We have found our Kobiyashi-Maru.

There is no way to reprogram the scenario.

We have to hope for an emergent solution.

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Thank you for elaborating. Iā€™m hearing a lot of rumblings from different directions, and all have some foot in the hacker / infosec (drink) communities. Iā€™m not trying to gain any legitimacy here, but for cultural touch points I remember cDc from the textfiles days.

I donā€™t think this will be open ended. There are challenges to trials going forward with the number of jurisdictions involved, and I donā€™t think this is a problem the hacker community is going to solve on itā€™s own.

We have to hope for an emergent solution.

Sometimes it all gets way more messy before it gets better again. Thanks again for the feedback. I know you say youā€™ve got nothing to loose, but clearly youā€™ve invested a lot over the years.

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Working with the legal system is a good method for dealing with activities that are not legal.

But what about activities that are unethical, immoral, or otherwise detrimental to individuals or the community ā€“ but not illegal?

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Reminds me of all the tech libertarians promote the idea that ā€œStatistā€ regulations should be replaced with ā€œmarket reputationā€ to keep businesses honest and right-acting.

Of course, that never worksā€¦

Plenty of kink in the IT community, but kink is not rape. The apparent misdeeds of Appelbaum are not the responsibility of sexual minorities.

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Yep, rape isnā€™t BDSM, BDSM isnā€™t rape. Some people hide behind kink but the two are motivationally different even if the aesthetic can seem confusing from outgroup.

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The damage was probably done long ago.

I am a libertarian-socialist and a hacker. I have seen examples of people in the hacking community who despite claiming to be anarchist are extremely authoritarian and bullying, especially towards minorities.

They should be dealt with as soon as there is a problem. If their behaviour is accepted they can (and do) put themselves in positions where they can do as they please, making the environment friendly towards anyone like them and hostile to those who arenā€™t.

An example of this is what happened to the Socialist Workers Party in the UK. They arenā€™t anarchist, but they had a similar mechanism for dealing with problems as you suggest. What actually ended up happening was that one leader who was accused of rape stacked the committee with his friends who dismissed all charges then the group went on to abuse the victim and her friends. Everything was set up to silence dissenters and protect the powerful. When the news came out I know a lot of anarchist groups in the UK looked at and rewrote their conflict management guidelines to avoid similar situations, but even then you have to trust that everyone is acting in the best interests of all the community. Just a few persuasive psychopaths in the group can really screw things up.

Contracts are meaningless if they are built on a foundation of coercion (it also sounds like voluntarism rather than anarchism, but thats well off topic).

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Ah ā€œVoluntarismā€, the Ron Paul pro-racial segregation wing of the Libertarians.

It is not clear how much of anything is anything, to be fair, because there is no review and no witness except self witness except in one case ā€“ the case of the young woman in the lobby. She has come forward and self-identified and refuted the interpretation of the accounts in the media that she was not distressed by Jake but by the fact that she could not find her personal belongings in her purse, and later that she was going to miss seeing Jake before departing for a significant amount of time from his company.

Filters.

But I feel uncomfortable reposting her account because she closes by impugning further remarks by the victim group as to their personal credibility on their own experience (rather than their process), which I also consider bad process, yes? So this is the furthering of the toxic pool of acid, without community process, that we set ourselves in.

I know I sound fussy in these particulars, but they are guidelines of formal nonviolent mediation that are meant to lead to better outcomes. Iā€™ve seen them do well with countries, with unions, with coalitions, with all kinds of organizations and things youā€™d barely call that ā€“ perhaps coalescing ideas ā€“ over half a century.

Iā€™ve seen them ignored to such disaster Iā€™m willing to look like an utter jerk to promote them. So perhaps if Iā€™m lucky Iā€™ll at least succeed on both, heh.

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Who cares about fā€™ing anarchism here? I know a lot of the folks involved in these accusations, as it turns out, and no one is reasoning from a basis of anarchist consensus decision making. The only reason people havenā€™t gone to the cops yet is because they havenā€™t wanted to try to prove things in a court of law, especially since he currently lives in Germany and most of his actions took place in other countries, including the US. The chance of getting a conviction is slim unless one of his victims is German and theyā€™re willing to make a statement to the police and then follow it all the way to trial.

I really donā€™t care if you feel fussy about particulars or things. This isnā€™t about how you feel about this case after all. This is about a guy (a guy who was my friend) who turns out to be a serial abuser of people, including intimidation games (some sexually motivated) on people that I turn out to know. So fuck him.

Right now, you seem more like an apologist for him though a smarter one than most.

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[quote=ā€œenso, post:97, topic:79189, full:trueā€][/quote]

Who cares about fā€™ing anarchism here? I know a lot of the folks involved in these accusations, as it turns out, and no one is reasoning from a basis of anarchist consensus decision making.

Ah, well, we run in different circles. I happen to know a great number of people who care, not only from the pov of anarchism but different frameworks. I have been contacted by slower thoughtful groups that are preparing statements, in part in reaction to my call for process and Wikileaks RT of it on Twitter, which may have resulted in the widest circulation of any tweet in my lifetime. So I think saying ā€œno oneā€ is an understatement. Howeverā€¦

The only reason people havenā€™t gone to the cops yet is because they havenā€™t wanted to try to prove things in a court of law, especially since he currently lives in Germany and most of his actions took place in other countries, including the US. The chance of getting a conviction is slim unless one of his victims is German and theyā€™re willing to make a statement to the police and then follow it all the way to trial.

ā€¦the alternatives to a state court tend to be solved in non-state frameworks, which are popular in hacker circles. Itā€™s a solved problem. Anarchist, whether formal anarchist, or formal nonviolent process, whatever the terms you favor, these solutions have been used for over a century by groups who were outside the trust of state courts. My grandparents were syndicalists, my dad was a wobbly organizer when he was young, and worked with MLK/SCLC as night security around the time I was in early elementary school.

These are not novel problems. Not even in the morphology of these particulars, sadly.

You may not be familiar with these solutions, but I happen to be quite sure than many of the principals involved are.

I really donā€™t care if you feel fussy about particulars or things. This isnā€™t about how you feel about this case after all. This is about a guy (a guy who was my friend) who turns out to be a serial abuser of people, including intimidation games (some sexually motivated) on people that I turn out to know. So fuck him.

This isnā€™t either, then, about how you feel about the case at all. This is about justice.

And thatā€™s hard for a person to hear who is hearing that one set of friends believes one thing, and another friend is saying another thing. However, itā€™s not only an issue of this case, but how we deal with any future problems of this sort.

Your feelings are making you feel you must have vengeance for your friends, and in a way, that shows your outrage and loyalty for your friends. This is considered a virtue.

But on a community basis these immediate reactions turn into bad outcomes for the long term view of society.

We left an eye for an eye many centuries ago.

This is rough territory. We do not know great solutions but we know some of the solutions are wrong. Kobiyashi Maru.

Right now, you seem more like an apologist for him though a smarter one than most.

I have said before and I will say again, I have no concept of Jakeā€™s innocence or guilt across all these incidents but I do have a condemnation of the process. The process is flawed.

And the moment his guilt in any incident unravels, the way the victim coalition has set up their bastion, they are more vulnerable to credibility attacks than if they had set on another path which hurts them and the credibility of any woman who ever steps forward in the future. Which should make any woman hesitate to step forward. That is their doing, and they will blame it on Jake too. Thus the process further degrades.

Donā€™t shoot the messenger. Well, you will anyway. I donā€™t wear Kevlar, but then again, I am at the end of my life and thatā€™s why I took up this role. No other sane person would.

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Were any of them molested by Jake? People I know personally have come out and said they had to remove his hands from their person and fend off his constant attempts to not take ā€œnoā€ for an answer.

No one here. While your account isnā€™t new, I donā€™t recognize you from this community at all. You donā€™t regularly participate here.

Popular with some not all. I work in those circles professionally. Iā€™m also the founder or co-founder of two different hackerspaces. You donā€™t need to try to school me, son.

I really donā€™t care about anarchists or your grandparents or parents. In fact, you sure seem to talk a lot about yourself in this thread as if people would care. This thread isnā€™t about you, as much as you seem to talk about yourself and your ideas and all the people you know and their ideas. It is about what Jake has been doing to attack people and to invalidate the trust folks had in him.

If this was about justice, Jake would be in a dark room getting some forceful correction by now. In all likelihood, there will never be any justice for him. We all know that people that take advantage of others, especially sexually, tend to get away with it. Heck, maybe heā€™d get six months in jail if he got caught red handed!

No we didnā€™t, really.

By all means, talk about yourself some more. It really adds to the thread.

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Canā€™t escape human nature after all

Yah know that law means actually compensation assigned by established courts, not physically compensatory vengeance.

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I think thereā€™s a real issue here with understanding where a ā€œcommunityā€ overlaps with other groups, institution, and society as a whole.

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I donā€™t see how but Iā€™m curious. Can you clarify?

Weā€™re all citizens of a state with laws, after all.

Sorry. I was referring more to @shava23ā€™s interpretation. I think you and I are probably in agreement that this goes way beyond the ā€œhacker communityā€.

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Anarchist collectives donā€™t universally ā€œmediateā€ with sexual predators, the ones Iā€™ve encountered excise them from the group. You know and support some shitty people.

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