I can’t help but see the glaring fact that you left out the drown it in a bath tub part.
Do you really know nothing about how hard people with money are working to make even more money these days, by trying to gut and then shut down public institutions, and then to make even more money by replacing them with more expensive and ultimately less efficient privatized options?
I guess everything Bernie Sanders says about our rigged economy goes right over your head.
It’s fascinating. This is a nice example on how a law by itself is not a good or bad, it’s the context that counts.
It’s not wrong to require proper voter identification. It’s just wrong to do it where “proper identification” is a luxury not available to all citizens.
The “integrity of the vote” means more than “there is no significant voter fraud”. For a working democracy, you need to convince 90% of the potential voters that no fraud is happening. It’s not enough that it’s obvious to smart people that the system works. So, if America’s craziest 30% are convinced that there is too much fraud, then the system needs fixing even if there is no fraud at all.
Do you care about minors, tourists, resident aliens and illegal immigrants voting? If no, that simplifies the problem. Just use some election ink.
But lets assume you really want to limit the vote to citizens, you need a way to compile those voter lists. If the state knows enough about John Doe to say that he’s entitled to vote, they could also issue a photo ID for John Doe. And then you might as well require ID.
In general, I’d say that if B is only a problem because of A, and A is problem, then people should stop fighting about B and fix A.
Why the hell is America incapable of providing proper ID to its citizens?
That’s almost a fundamental human right. Well, being allowed to leave and re-enter your country is, and passports are really useful for exercising that right. If any other state service requires a proof of identity, it only becomes more important.
Government-issued ID is also really useful in private transactions. I get to prove that I am who I say I am to people I do business with. Fewer credit checks, fewer identity thefts.
You might say that you don’t want the government to keep track of all citizens. You might therefore reject government-issued ID on principle. Nice idea. But does it make sense in a car-centered country where you need a drivers license, and where the government has already been caught keeping metadata of all your phone calls?
One more question:
What’s the point then? If all they need is some information that you write on a form, without any further verification, why can’t that be done right at the polling place?
They don’t want that either. Like the proposed one stop government ID. Big Brother and all.
The government sucks largely because it is currently being run by the people who have a vested interest in making it looks like the government sucks. When run by competent people interested in good governance, it tends to work quite well for many things (or at least better than the alternatives).
hell even when it sucks it still works better than a lot of the alternatives.
[quote=“milliefink, post:61, topic:73768”]
I guess everything Bernie Sanders says about our rigged economy goes right over your head.
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I think we’re talking to a wall here (i.e., no acknowledgement of such points – maybe he’s a republican?).
Sail on o mighty ship of state!
Again - when has the government not sucked? Is this a Republican conspiracy since 1776? Why do other countries also complain about their governments? Why are there spectacular examples of government failure through out history?
I acknowledge Republicans are part of the problem. They aren’t the cause of all of the issues, however.
Obama was supposed to save us and make things better too, remember? Young idealistic politician? Outsider to the Old Guard?
And even looking past the bad law makers, the bad politicians, have you ever had to deal with the government for anything. I can’t ever recall walking away thinking, “That was a pleasant experience.” I mean something simple like pay my tax bill, get a copy of my marriage certificate or my kids birth certificate. I’ve seen more joy and customer service from a soul-drained walmart cashier. It just permeates everything it touches. My ex-Mother-in-law was trying to get my kid dual citizenship from Poland. After doing everything they asked of me, they made me drive 3 hours to Saint Louis to literally sign a paper in front of a Polish Bureaucrat (old school Communist who just loooooved this shit.)
So yeah, if we can budget it provide people better healthcare, I can support that. But I know people on government healthcare NOW, both VA and Medicare/aid. As shitty as my healthcare is right now, it still sounds better than what they have to go through. The absurd run arounds they have to deal with.
But hey - maybe I’m just jaded. Please everyone feel free to share your last government interaction that went well. I guess the last time I renewed my license it took less than 30 min, which was a total shock. And they now have it where you can take a number, and they will text you to come back in. Oh wait, I think Missouri privatized their DMV. Go figure.
Well, since you’d like to shrink all of this down to the rather useless level of anecdotes, I always have a great experience at my local DMV, where getting my license renewed takes about fifteen minutes. Maybe one reason cheerful service is included is that the workers know they’re better off than they would be if the whole thing was privatized, in which case their job conditions would be little different than those suffered by Wal-Mart workers (which by the way: you think privatization results in more cheerful customer service? REALLY?). I also have older relatives who have no complaints about the clockwork-like timeliness of their social security checks.
Anyway, none of what you wrote says much about what goes downhill when government services get converted to profit-seeking interests.
I realized after reading the next sentence that “think the way they do” means “support the same candidate they do.” On first reading I thought it meant “are willing to cheat to win” - that is, people who support voter ID laws are largely willing to cheat to win an election so they can’t believe there isn’t more cheating going on. I suspect it might be both.[quote=“Mister44, post:57, topic:73768”]
How long has this been going on, because I don’t recall a time when the government was known for working well. When did this sabotage begin? How far does it reach?
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I speak from the Canadian experience, but seriously this has been going on for years. When right wing governments (who might be left of the Democrats in some ways but are increasingly heading for Republican-style culture wars) are in place services get worse and worse.
Then a “Liberal” government gets in and decides to dramatically improve customer service so, for example, when I applied for a birth certificate it took me about 5 minutes and I got it in the mail within 2 weeks.
Every time something is privatized it gets more expensive and service gets worse.
The only reason governments can give bad service is because people have low expectations. If people voted out governments that ran public services badly then we’d have good public services. Instead, people vote for governments who insist that running public services well is impossible, which is a lame excuse at best.
Go look at actual surveys about how much people like or dislike their governments from various countries. You’ll find that countries where people like their governments are countries where governments provide a lot of services and do a lot of regulating. The American government seems to regard the American people as its adversary, but I don’t think that problem is nearly as pronounced in other nations.
Actually, my state is a pretty good example of government not working precisely because of a consistent undermining by the GOP. I’ve heard nothing but horror stories from people trying to get health care from the state for their children and part of the reason for this is that their is a budget crisis that the GOP controlled legislature/governor refuses to fix by accepting money from the federal government. Add to that the fact that state employees are barred from collective bargaining, it’s a shit show. It really doesn’t have to be that way. It can work, if the state puts the resources into programs that need to be there and give employees a reason to think that they’re valued.
For the record, I am not for privatizing every facet of government. If it could be privatized, maybe it shouldn’t be actual be a government program. Certainly somethings in government are made to be community services, not profit making ventures. Cops, firemen, libraries, etc. At the same time lots of what the government pays for should be bid out to private companies. Arms makers, road and bridge construction, etc. The USPS is sort of interesting entity, because it has been profitable and a drain on resources, depending on how it was run. But it is an example of a program that does work most of the time. And certainly things like Dept. Labor, SEC, etc provide very important oversight even if they aren’t perfect.
Social Security checks are pretty good about coming in on time, as I said you can find parts of government that work well. Getting signed up for programs can be a mess. Just curious, care to share what state your DMV is in?
But yes, I do still contend that my local cashier at walmart or the grocery store is more cheerful and helpful than the local area government (Granted I guess those are all state levels. Maybe just Missouri’s government sucks?)
Again I contend too many programs are inept and way to slow to react - making them ripe for fraud. Example - http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2014/08/16/a-medicare-scam-that-just-kept-rolling/ In this case they even figured out they were getting screwed and couldn’t do anything to stop it.
Finally, do you really think Democrats don’t have “profit-seeking interests”? I mean I think Sanders is a good guy, but the median net worth of Democrat law makers is 1.04 million dollars. http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2014/01/millionaires-club-for-first-time-most-lawmakers-are-worth-1-million-plus/
ETA - and to be clear - I am not even defending Republicans. I am disparaging government in general. If the problem was JUST Republicans, States with Democrats in control would be utopias of government efficiency - right? I totally agree Republicans are responsible for some really stupid shit, like the current Education fiasco in Kansas (my home state).
ETA II - Nor am I suggesting we privatize getting my birth certificate records. I just don’t hold out hope for EXPANDING programs when the ones we currently have are BROKEN. Fix what we have first, please. Make me regain faith.
Maybe too long for a bumper sticker, but I’d still put it on my car.
Why not? Why not fix it (usually by funding it properly) rather than making it even worse?
You seem good at online research. Please try to rebut this claim:
Every time something is privatized it gets more expensive and service gets worse.
My assumption is that the registrar of voters uses the cut off time before elections to verify eligibility (via DMV, county clerks’ offices, state tax boards, etc), and then has the county clerks print out precinct voter lists. If there is a snafu when a voter tries to cast a vote (name not on list or a new/different polling place), provisional ballots are accepted and the county clerks sort it out. Polling places change depending upon the type of election and this is when issues arise because voters don’t look at their sample ballot. However, to vote in California all one has to do is to tell the person their address and then sign an affidavit.
I know this is anecdotal, but I’ve voted in every presidential election since 1980 (and I think I’ve missed one municipal election in that same time). As much as I’ve moved around since 1980, I have never arrived at a polling place and found myself not on the list. I also haven’t found anyone trying to cast my vote.
The United States has this institution (constitutional ) of states rights. It won’t change because our founding fathers made it very difficult to amend the Constitution. I can’t see the individual states ceding this right to the federal government. We already have 50+ drivers’ licenses (+ is for territories) and even with the TSA weighing in, states aren’t willing to jump through the feds hoops.
Consider the number of illegal immigrants living in the US, and then consider how they’ve been treated (especially in recent times). Doesn’t surprise me that many of them don’t want to stroll down to the local government offices to be photographed and metadata’d.
I just want to take this on a little more. “The government” has actually be extremely successful. Roads and bridges, sanitation, justice systems, and public education probably make up the bulk of the wealth creation potential of developed nations, and all are provided by “the government.”
If the private sector is so good at providing health care, why does America have such high infant mortality? Or low life expectancy for a developed nation?
Why does America have the most expensive car insurance in the world?
Why does the US’s private prison system have such an absurdly high re-arrest rate compared to prison systems run by the government with a goal of reform rather than profit?
I can’t find literacy data on developed nations, but given the state of America’s worst schools, how do we think that would work out?
I think your thesis, that governments suck, is just empirically false. Everything sucks for sure, but governments aren’t a special case of that and private enterprise sucks too. The government does things well when it not corrupted by private money. Private enterprise does things okay when the government doesn’t excessively pick favourites and hand out monopolies and when wealth inequality doesn’t get too out of hand and completely distort the market.
The merging of government and private enterprise (whether it’s under the name of fascism, communism, or late-stage-capitalism) is plutocracy and has terrible results for everyone who isn’t a plutocrat. It has nothing to do with government sucking,
I think this is the part that @mister44 refuses to look behind the curtain and see. As for so many Americans, government is just government, and government is almost always just plain inefficient, no matter who’s running it or how they do so.
