Mad Max mocks machismo

I’m just going to go with the assumption that people are seeing what they want to see.

I’m basing my assumption on the fact that it’s an action film. Not saying it’s impossible for action films to have social commentary, but they tend to make the commentary with the complexity and subtlety of a brick to the face. In which case the write-up about the message would not need to be this long and would only consist of the words “that bit there” and a link to a clip from the movie, probably a single speech.

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@marilove

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Was that an entire bingo card in one post?

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You don’t really know anything about Mad Max or Geroge Miller’s creations, do you? Including what he himself has stated about the films…

Actually, I get the feeling you haven’t even seen the movie… And I bet you think Star Trek is only about ships. And Starship Troopers was only about blowing up alien bugs. (You’d be wrong on both accounts!)

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I have not seen this most recent film, due to it being out only in theaters and me not being able to view movies in said places. But that’s beside the point. As I’ve been told on numerous occasions, modern art-criticism is such that the opinion of the creator does not matter. It’s the effect it has on the recipient that matters. So one could quite happily argue with George Miller about his works and consider/prove him to be wrong. Which was part of my point. Both the fedora-brigade and the angry-lot are both seeing exactly what they want to see.

Also, I am familiar with all the previous Mad Max -films and some of George Miller’s other works (only a few), I am also aware that in Star Trek the space setting is pretty interchangeable with other settings, and in neither the book nor the film of Starship Troopers was the bughunt the main point. (and both made vastly different points at that)

PS. Since you lost the bet, what do I win?
PPS. There’s no need to shout.

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If you saw the movie, you just might grasp why this isn’t at all a good assumption to make.

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I get the impression you don’t know what you’re really on about here, but debating the meaning of a work with the creator isn’t the same as seeing only what you want to see.

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Modern art criticism can be best described as this:

The related discussions perhaps even more.

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What if I don’t want anything? Does that mean that I don’t see anything?

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Just saw the film. The visuals were incredible. The story struck me that max, as in previous films was a foil, or perhaps vehicle for others to tell their tale (he he :wink:).

I wouldn’t use the word feminist to describe the plot, and perhaps that is just a nitpick. Humanist, and equality are closer. There are attempts at redemption in a world that wants to cleave everyone apart. And the protagonists are equals, except that max is the thread that links four disparate movies.

The ending was satisfying. I thought the juxtaposition of Max’s psychological injuries against Furiosas physical was fantastic. And the character motivations were spot on, empathizable, and well acted.

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I will respond to you without viritol.

What made that commenter obnoxious was that she trolled every response- and I say trolled because she outright attacked everyone, by essentially coming across as though she were screaming at people. When you end your posts “back to your videogames”, and well, read her posts- she wasn’t even trying to be civil.

I’ve normally learned to just shut the hell up when people disagree with me- as people who can’t debate civily without snark and viritol simply aren’t worth my time. Nor would I be of yours if I did so. I’m not here to insult anyone- when someone continues to scream at the top of their lungs at others and berate them- even if they are right, they lack legitimacy.

Yes, I have taken film studies classes. I try not to make assumptions of people blindly when I don’t know them. It was actually a good part of my degree- I spent semesters doing nothing but analysis of Japanese cultural films exactly along the lines of how you are analysizing Fury Road. I learned to see the critiques of society through the filmmakers lens on Kurosawa, Itami, and many others. From samurai jidaigeki films to modern takes. I’ve seen a lot, and been trained to see it. I am not a professional film critic or analyst, but I understand the framework. Fury Road the way Chu’s article analyzed it is a perfectly valid and honestly, quite obvious take on it. I saw it that way the whole movie, it practically beat me over the head with it.

I’m not arguing with the violent men ruined the world view in the movie, or that Nux redeems himself, or anything like that. It’s plain as day to see that was a strong point made in the film. You don’t need training to see that. It’s a bad guys screwed up the world, and we want to fix it storyline.

What I AM furious about is this- that my mere sexual assignment by birth boils ME down to a critique by anyone that I am inherently violent, and incapable of civility compared to the other half of my race. That’s bordering on phrenological, master race-esque eugenics level justification BULLSHIT.

I am not here to insult, belittle, flame, troll, or defend misogynists. Me calling bullshit, it’s not meant as any insult- it’s just that, I call bullshit. I’ll be damned if I let anyone, male or female, treat me like I can be judged so easily simply by the gender I hold.

Do you think transgendered people would like it if people tried to argue they acted a certain way because of their transgenderedness? Why do you come across that it’s ok to do that to me, because I’m a man? You don’t know me. I don’t know you.

I saw the movie the day before it was officially released. Yes, I watched the movie. How could I discuss it to any degree without doing so? See Rob’s review thread on the film- my take is there.

Here’s what I find the saddest- I feel that no matter how reasoned I try to say it, or how loud I could scream, or insult you, or empathize with you (which I have tried to do- I outright called the analysis you adhere to perfectly valid, among many other possible views of it), no matter what I say, I am and will always be something for you to dismiss, to laugh at, to ridicule, to mock, to hate- because I am a man, among other things, but because it’s easy to jump on a hatewagon. It’s hard to get off. Please, disprove my view- I don’t care to see anyone in that light.

Everyone, do me a favor- if someone can’t respond civily to you, if snarky deriding gif images is an acceptable response in lieu of a reasonable discussion, ignore them.

If you care to have a civil discussion with me, we can do that. But drop the hate and derision. It does not flatter you.

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I’ll play idiot- because honestly I don’t get this. I’m fine with admitting I don’t understand things.
This is some kind of mockery, right? Because I write too much? I’m guessing this based on who
liked this.

If that’s a large part of being a geek to you, it works for you, great. Honestly, after all the film analysis classes, I don’t care to look for critique anymore. I don’t care for films that make their own critique so obvious. Making analysis too obvious to normal cues, while glossing over it as if to hide it with the directing, takes all the feeling and fun out of the film for me. And some films, like Mad Max, are quite honestly incredibly obvious. The world is a nuclear wasteland and people kill each other for sport and to survive. There is a world of easy critique about a hundred aspects of all the films in that.

Because it’s so beyond obvious, I don’t feel like they try to impose upon me to critique them. So that’s probably why I enjoy them. It’s a straightforward movie series that doesn’t pretend to hide the social and environmental messages- it just zooms past them. If you care to see them, they’re there, in your face. I just love them for all the other aspects- the tribalism, the design ingenuity they came up with to survive, the interesting ways societies rose within the outback, what technology still survives, all the little stuff. The Mad Max films, to me, present all the other aspects with such detail that while the critique is there, it’s not some over-arching force that overpowers the entire theme of the movie.

I do identify as a geek/nerd, whatever term you want, but my definition is I am because I care about things deeply beyond what normal mainstream society does. That’s what I call a nerd. I’m a bilingual watchmaker that cuts gems, and a million other weird things that I enjoy, that most people find strange. I like to understand obscure aspects of things. So that’s why I call myself a nerd.

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Whoa, I must have missed something. From a decent amount of convos with @marilove I don’t find that kind of argument in her character. Critical examination? Absolutely. No nonsense writing? Sure. …eugenics? Uh, again I must have missed something.

And BTW, all caps AM, ME, and BULLSHIT does sound at the very least extremely aggressive, if not violent. That plus the use of loaded terms is poisoning your debate .

You want a civil debate. So show us what a civil debate is.

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That is a perfect distillation of the problem we seem to have regarding the critques of the movie. It took a while to let the real meaning of that sink in. That’s just brilliant- I think you get it. That’s exactly how I feel- but commentary back and forth may mask my expression of that.

Blind “machismo” is just stupid, and usually doesn’t lead to anything useful or good. What is the polar opposite of that? The same thing about that. My vocabulary fails me. We need perspective and clear consciousness apart from traditional gender boundaries to discuss a matter like this. You win some internets there.

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You quote me out of context- something easy to do with someone upset and verbose. Caps here imply emphasis only. The sentence preceeding “BULLSHIT” in caps included every terminology for debunked things that were once considered proper science, thereby implying the needed degree of said bullshit towards what people are assuming is proper.

I have never described my use of the word “bullshit” before to someone. How’s that for civil :)? Really, no hate intended. If I was a violent person, I wouldn’t bother to debate people, or clarify things, I think. I would just scream at people with explictives, or other such things.

Using the word eugenics, and pointing out that you want to have a civil debate while yelling BS is not out of context. And it certainly is outside the realm of civility.

Additionally, verbosity doesn’t mean you are correct. Just ask William Henry Harrison :smile:

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Why does using the word eugenics make someone wrong? It was a horrible idea, and history has I think universally agreed on that. Precisely because it was positioned as correct, and scientific. When it was neither. Hence, using it to imply a level of extreme bullshit would be fine.

I agree- overly verbose doesn’t mean correct. I’m not trying to use verbosity to position myself that way- it’s a failing, I’ve admitted that several places before. I am not good at tersity.

If we have to pretend that any way the other party speaks is uncivil when we disagree, we won’t get anywhere.

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I agree with what you’re saying and I’ve felt the same way for a long time, however I’ve given up on it ever becoming a normal or default way of thinking about things. People as a mass don’t do well with continuums of thought. It’s partially a trap of language and partially something else; maybe an efficiency/competition thing. Anyway it felt good to see someone else articulate it this nicely, so thank you for that.

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Also people argue about pop culture more now than in the past, and invest more of their personal and political identities into the pop culture they consume, so there’s that.

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