Man who shot woman who pulled into his driveway promptly charged

Hi Joe. I think most of what you said is pretty reasonable. I don’t necessarily agree with your views, but some of this is stuff reasonable people could debate. And I wish we could have a reasonable discussion about it (and many other issues here, by which i mean Boing Boing, The United States, etc), but at the moment, the Overton window is being slammed so hard to the right by people with infinite resources that it can feel like any attempt at reasonable discussion is ceding ground to the assholes. And it feels like an existential crisis (one of many), so people push back as hard as they are able.

To give an example close to my heart, my Dad was an American Baptist Minister (by way of differentiating from the organization of Southern Baptist Ministers). He was a great guy. He was always trying to help people in need, he started a halfway house, he helped organize the immigration of Hmong refugees, and he was pro-science, an amateur paleontologist & geologist.

Even with that background, when I hear someone calling themselves a Christian these days, my initial response is suspicion. Christianity in the US has been so co-opted by politics, racism, misogyny and institutional abuse that as a survival impulse, I have to step back and do some cold calculation.

So, while I believe that you personally have had a healthy and happy relationship with owning guns, gun ownership has been so-co-opted by bad actors that the only sane response from me (and I suspect other on these forums) varies from a cold suspicion to hot rejection of your approach. Too little, too late.

Here’s my issue with the notion of the Responsible Gun Owner. Say this guy bought this gun 5 years ago, and when he did he was a healthy, happy member of society. So what happened? Was he spiraling this day on social-media fueled fear? Maybe he has early stage Alzheimer’s? Maybe he just had a really bad day? We don’t know. Whatever the actual circumstances, he had access to a machine that could end another human life in a split-second, no undo.

So, background checks are great, let’s do that. But it doesn’t address the fact that there is absolutely no way to predict future outcomes when you sell someone the Death Button. We just have to sit back and hope that they never push the Death Button, even on their worst day.

Some of our days have been pretty bad of late. That hasn’t been working out well for us, IMO.

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yup. people aren’t born criminals, and there’s no way to pre-crime them because most crimes are born out of circumstance not character. and – unfortunately – one of those circumstances is having access to a gun.

it’s so simple: if you want to stop people dying from guns, get rid of the guns.

( and it all applies to suicide just as well crime )

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There are “stand your ground” states, “castle doctrine” states, and “duty to retreat” states. I am chagrined to learn that my home state of Oregon is a “stand your ground” state in which you CAN use deadly force to protect property. ORS 161.219, for example, states that a person is justified in using deadly physical force if he reasonably believes that the other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling.

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Shooting someone in your driveway because they were at the wrong house? that’s horrible behavior, and not really conforming to the spirit that law intended. (Which I believe are things like home invasions, carjackings, or crimes of that nature.)

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So, we can just completely ignore this then. /s

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That’s just a codification of the castle doctrine. The key part there is that they have to be inside your house. In this case, the woman was in the driveway. Also, in criminal law, burglary doesn’t mean property theft, it just means crime in general. So…someone being in your home attempting to commit a burglary just means that they are in your home with the intent to do something illegal. It could be stealing something, it could be assaulting you, it could be vandalism. Burglary is a pretty broad term, in criminal law, as opposed to its meaning in common usage. Regardless, the castle doctrine is not implicated in the New York case, and probably isn’t implicated in the Kansas City case either, unless the man claims the boy did more than ring his doorbell, but actually tried to enter his home.

Stand your ground laws simply remove the duty to retreat from a conflict once the person attacking you is no longer posing a threat. In common law, that was the rule. If someone attacked you, you could defend yourself, but if they retreated, you then had a duty to retreat as well. Stand your ground laws remove that duty. There still, however, has to be a belief that your life, or someone else’s, is reasonably in danger to begin with. Neither stand your ground laws or the castle doctrine gives anyone the freedom to shoot someone who isn’t posing a threat to you who is on your front porch or in your driveway, especially not when they are attempting to leave.

There are over 400 million guns in this country. There are around 330 million people. I don’t know what percentage of people own at least one firearm, but I’m sure it’s frighteningly high. When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. This will keep happening, and it’s going to get worse if we don’t do something. I do not know what it’s going to take to break the stranglehold the NRA has on this issue, but we have to figure it out, or the body count is going to keep going up.

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I would say, rather that politics has been co-opted by the very brand of Christianity you are speaking against.

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… um, that’s not literally true in New York

but you still can’t just murder people for no reason

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FYI - the original post to which I originally replied to said my comment was “childish”, but then apparently went back and changed or deleted his post. Then attempted to flag my post. Mods stepped in and sorted it out.

That captures the irony so perfectly.

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