So as you apparently didn’t read what I wrote before I just save time and quote myself:
So when do you buy her the full body garment to protect her from the male gaze?
Seems like you’re proactively creeping to keep away creepers.
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I’m late to the party because it took me a while to find this article I’d recalled reading a few years ago:
The niqab makes me feel liberated, and no law will stop me from wearing it
When we meet, I choose what you see. You deal with my mind and personality. I wasn’t forced to wear the niqab, and forcing me to take it off would be oppression
by Semaa Abdulwali
I’ve always been the sort of person who loved to experiment, but I never expected that wearing the niqab would be something I’d try.
I felt conflicted before I began to wear it a few months ago. I am aware of the negative perceptions of the niqab, and thought it could change my life drastically. Would it be hard at university, where I study medical science? The majority of the students aren’t Muslim. I wondered whether I would have to be out of sight, out of mind, most of the time.
Would wearing the niqab disconnect me from the world? I hadn’t seen that in other women who wear the niqab or burqa, but considered the worst-case scenario. As it turned out, my fears were misplaced. It’s so much easier than I had thought, and didn’t change my life at all.
Respect and honour don’t come from being like others, or following what others follow – that’s why I put the niqab on. It’s my way of expressing obedience to my lord; it’s a command that I adhere to, through which I find my honour. It is not a garment of oppression, it is a garment that represents a timeless modesty that does not conform to society.
I was not forced to wear the niqab. In fact, my parents aren’t the biggest fans of my decision. In the months before making my decision I spent a lot of time with women who inspired me; they never asked me or pushed me towards putting it on, they were simply the most enjoyable company to have.
Nor is it oppressive. I feel liberated by the fact that I choose what you see. We pass judgement on how a person looks before we know them. When you deal with me, you deal with my mind, my personality, my emotions and what I have to offer as a person – and that’s it.
Tony Abbott and Jacqui Lambie say that any restriction on the burqa or niqab is a matter for national security. I completely understand, but their claims are ignorant: in fact it is is part of sharia law that we must uncover our faces for identification. When I went to get a parking permit at my university, I asked if I needed to show my face.
Banning the niqab or burqa would take away my right to live in the way that fits me. That restricts my freedom and puts me in a position where I must be especially cautious of my surroundings. Violence and abuse against Muslim women has increased as a result of the fear-mongering on this issue.
No matter what law is passed on the niqab, it will not stop me from wearing it. I don’t want to be controlled and told what I can and can not wear: that is oppression.
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The dude that thought indigenous cultural artifacts were best kept by white guys on another continent?
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Yes… it’s always lovely to spend a Sunday afternoon reading about how men think women should be in this world, isn’t it?
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I told the story of Sir Gawain and the Loathey Lady already, right?
How it’s an allegory that dates back to Chaucer’s age, which demonstrates that most women want one thing above all else; Agency over our own lives and bodies.
Again, how freakin hard is that to understand?
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It’s never “we need better schools” or helping someone out into the wider world slowly throughout subsequent generations, it’s literally ripping unacceptable clothing off and trying to destroy culture after they touch ground.
Or in other cases, apparently slut-shaming sex workers? Because if you don’t understand the purpose of shouting at African women, surely you must accept that “enlightened” western women also must be told what is good for them. Horrible analogies ahoy!
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I know right… it’s not that hard. It’s not. But no matter how often we shout that, it gets ignored. Sad really…[quote=“Phrenological, post:155, topic:82880”]
it’s always literally ripping unacceptable clothing off
[/quote]
Honestly, it’s always either too much clothes or not enough. It’s not about us and what we feel comfortable in, but about what men find acceptable. It’s exhausting having to argue about this, yet again.
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No, and we shouldn’t, either. It’s clear at least some of our comrades who are men get it, at least!
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I even know a few personally.
There’s hope, yet.
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Really? Oh, you mean so they won’t be raped by a Muslim man who is reacting “naturally” to the sight of a woman’s face? So she won’t then by stoned to death for having sex with someone not her husband?
Jesus H Christ you are defending the subjugation of women because it is supposedly a protected religious freedom!
In case you’re not familiar with the story @Melizmatic is referring to (or, at least the part of it I think she is referring to):
Sir Gawain, to save the honour of King Arthur, agrees to wed a woman who is, to say the least, not pleasant to look upon. When it comes time to consummate their marriage, however, it is not the loathey lady he sees, but a beautiful maiden.
The maiden informs Gawain that she was under a curse, and now that she has wed, the curse has been broken for half the day. Sir Gawain must now choose which half of the day she is to be beautiful, and which half she is to be gruesome.
At first Gawain thinks to have her beautiful during the night, but the lady despairs at the thought: the Court scorns her due to her loathsome looks, and this would condemn her to a life of ridicule.
Gawain backtracks, and suggests that she be beautiful during the day. The lady despairs again, thinking that he does not love her, for none would choose to lie beside such a creature.
Finally, Sir Gawain gives the choice to the lady, to choose for herself when she should be beautiful, and with that, the curse is broken, and her beauty returns permanently.
Both obvious choices had drawbacks and advantages for the woman; both would condemn her, against her will, to something she had not chosen. The only right choice is to offer the choice itself to the woman.
Wearing a particular garment is not subjugation. Not wearing a particular garment is not subjugation. Being forced to wear or not to wear a garment is subjugation. Again, the only right choice is to allow Muslim women to choose for themselves what they should wear.
If you really cared about the subjugation of these women, you would want them to dress as they would themselves choose to dress, not as you would choose for them.
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No, I am not in any way defending subjugation.
Saying that their clothes can be a valid means of defense in no way implies that they should be attacked. That makes no more sense to me than saying that anybody who wears a bulletproof vest should be shot. A person at a renaissance fair might wear armor simply because they think it looks cool, or represents a heritage they are proud of.
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Yep; you nailed it.
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A valid means of defense? How so? Does it transform into a BatUtility belt? Is it bullet and fireproof? What exactly do you propose a burqa is a valid defensive material against?
Oh, of course not. If they had a brass ring through the nose leading to a leash could it be any more clear to you> How about legchains? How about if they voluntarily - that is to say choose - to be beaten and whipped daily? You would have no objection?
Is this how you think women in America should be treated?
And do you REALLY think this is consensual? Can you be more disparaging toward women? NO woman wants to be in a bag all day. No women dressed this way in secular Muslim countries until they were overrun with theocracy. Compare photos of Iran in the 1960’s with today. Women wore miniskirts. Voluntarily.
Hey, they totally ripped off the plot of Shrek 1 with that. 
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None of what you describe is particularly uncommon in the BDSM circuit (or so I’ve heard). I don’t see the appeal myself, but no, I have no objection to people getting their rocks off however they choose to, so long as all participants are able to give meaningful consent, and are consenting.
I would advise you read Ms. Ishaq’s statement, which I’ve posted much earlier in the thread. Just because you don’t understand why a person would want to do something (for instance, the appeal of drinking alcohol to the point of inebriation escapes me), you shouldn’t conclude that there is no good reason for anyone to want to do it.
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