No, I’m saying that after a mass shooting, all that is politically feasible is to get rid of flags.
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I definitely hung out with a very different crowd than those who choose to fly the Stars and Bars.
And I, too, associate it with a Fox News mentality.
However, I think a lot of people outside of the South see that flag as being equal in symbolism to the Nazi swastika.
To me, the first word that pops into my mind when I see that flag is: Redneck.
I know there are groups who use it to also express the same thing as you would with a swastika, and the symbol can be used that way. But, to me, that is not the primary association with the rebel flag. It’s not a positive association in my mind, but it’s not exactly a hate symbol. To me, it represents more of a membership of certain lower class group.
also this:
Oh goodness no, of course not. There’s certainly more racists than that in SC.
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Here’s one, which I found via wikipedia:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0038-4941.2006.00373.x/full
Of course, it doesn’t agree with his numbers. I quote:
By including both blacks and whites in our analysis, we are also able to determine the influence of race on support for the Confederate flag. Consistent with our expectations, blacks are more than two-and-a-half times more likely than whites to want the Confederate flag removed from atop the South Carolina capitol. The predicted probabilities indicate that when all other variables are held at their means, an African American has a 74 percent probability of believing that the Confederate flag should be removed from the South Carolina State House.
So the number of African Americans who don’t think that it should be removed is more like 26%. I suspect that a large proportion of that 26% either
- don’t want it removed but also don’t particularly want it to stay, or
- just don’t care about symbolism and flags one way or another.
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someone else posted this on a related thread:
A majority of US senators voted for a package of gun control measures only two years ago. The 54 who backed the bill… included [four] Republicans…
and:
Support for universal background checks skyrocketed after Sandy Hook… 90% of Americans… at its peak… polls continue to show strong support for expanding background checks, averaging 80%.
the whole right wing extremist, battle flag waving, gun touting aspect of the us is painful. the “war against terrorism”, the deep conservative streak of our military, the militarization of our police, and the way media like fox – carry guns in church idiocy, o’relly’s comments, etc. – makes me seriously worry about fascism sometimes.
on the other hand, gay rights keeps moving forward, people are talking about sexism and racism again in ways they haven’t for decades, pot is legalizing 
– maybe there is some hope still.
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Wearing a Che t-shirt has been enough in the past to trigger the mooks who are now coming out in defence of the Dixie Swastika.
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A fair number of those people are more ignorant than racist. I mean, they went through Southern schools teaching them that “states rights” were the main reason they seceded and slavery was going to go away all by itself and other nonsense. Never mind the Daughters of the Confederacy’s impressive propaganda campaign to twist history to avoid any kind of disgrace that might have led to some soul searching.
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As long it doesn’t bother the moneyed interests, it’s OK.
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Yeah, I’ve seen that thing from the freeway. Makes me wonder why my wife and I moved here in the first place.
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Upfront- Bill is an obnoxious blowhard. It’s sad that there are people who actually trust Fox News. It seems whatever is the most hateful, narrowminded backwards view, they’re on it. And Bill is on it like shit on a shingle. Because he’s both batshit nuts, and will say anything for money.
Racists, I think, happen when people are never exposed to people of other groups in person, when tight knit communities are never forced to interact with the people who are different from them- and someone else is there to enforce upon them the idea that another group is bad for whatever reason is convenient to them, when they never have reason to question that backwards view, because they have none of the people they hate living around them, and no mind to free thought.
Fox News becomes that enforcer with shit like this to a lot of racist assholes in America, people who have unfortunately no black people near them to show them they are no different from anyone else, and aren’t questioning enough of their own views to go meet one. So these Fox viewers base a large part of their views on Fox, and the worst stuff they see portrayed on rap videos that is completely incomprehensible to them culturally- adding up to a negative view of all black people unfairly.
I find the rebel flag something that represents that past of fighting for slavery- nothing else. It’s creation and use was as a battle flag for men that wanted to leave the USA over wanting to keep slaves as the main reason for war. I have heard people just today at work claim the same tired bullshit ORiely did- that it represents the honor of those who fought for the south. And other vaccuuous bullshit- like “the civil war wasn’t mainly about slavery- it was started over other issues mainly”. Yes, there were some other issues, but minor compared to slavery.
Thing is- I’m in a weird place many don’t get to see with my views. I’ve got a college degree in a liberal arts discipline, friends an coworkers in every background, country and color before where I work now. And I can’t fucking stand narrow minded or racist people. But due to many things- I left white collar work and work as a machinist mainly, in semi-rural PA. Many of the people I currently work with are openly racist. I don’t like to stereotype groups of people- so I don’t believe everyone in industry is racist, but an overwhelmingly large portion of employees in all the shops I’ve worked in over the years openly expressed hate of black people. This is my direct experience, what I’ve seen firsthand. It seems the norm in industry around here at least. It’s disgusting.
Thing is- when the topic of this flag stuff came up- I still couldn’t get a straight answer to “well, if the rebel war flag does actually represent the honor of those who died, can you show me one actual useage of it in that manner? One tasteful use? Anything? Because all I see it used for are trashy tshirts and novelty items. It’s stamped onto merch to sell it. I’ve never once seen a tasteful use of that flag. Ever. Not one.”
Know what I got for an answer? Silence.
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Let’s see… TV pundit calls a group that attacked America “brave”. If you happen to be Bill Maher, you get fired. If you’re Bill O’Reilly, apparently you don’t.
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I’m not looking to dismiss anybody’s opinion here but I don’t think any media outlet that’s addressing the same controversies as always, either pro or con, has anything to add.
Myth No1: Gun control would never pass Congress
Self fulfilling because it doesn’t reach congress
Myth No2: Americans don’t want meaningful gun reforms
Do Americans always get what they want from their government? All you have to do is want it?
Myth No8: The NRA is invincible
So far, yes.
Myth No9: Lawmakers will be voted out of office for supporting gun control
This is just begging the question.
There is no analysis, the only thing you have is media letting you know its okay to feel like things are different.
The thing I criticize is the limits imposed on the debate by the terms being used:
Flags as a stand-in for racism.
Yes its a victory, but it feels like the other player just sacrificed a rook to protect the king and only one of the players is thinking several moves in advance.
The only reasonable, logical, tasteful place you might have flown that flag is over a soldiers’ memorial, out of respect not for The Guys Who Fought To Defend Slavery but Great Grandpa Who Fought In The War.
Kind of like how a civilized country would fly the flag of an enemy nation over a graveyard of war dead, out of respect and common decency.
But . . . over time, even that kinda-legitimate use sours and becomes a political thing. Especially if you put the soldiers’ memorials, and memorials to Confederate generals, right by a state capital or town hall or court house. Then someone has made a deliberate, politicized choice. And the legitimacy mentioned above is lost.
Maybe if Lincoln had lived he would have banned the sucker, and had American flags hoisted over all soldiers’ memorials, North and South, because damnit we’re all Americans now.
Take it down.
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Absolutely and wholehartedly agreed. There may have been a time, but we should all be Americans now.
It’s just sad that we are even having this debate with others. I thought being against celebrating slavery was pretty damned mainstream. I see I was wrong- apparently there are plenty of people left that want to side with Bill O’Riely.
Slavery is wrong, it was wrong. It’s why we fought that war, and thank god the north won. We are all Americans now, supposedly united. If we can agree on one thing, we should agree that enslaving people was wrong, we fucked up, and that this flag directly represents, quite literally, fighting for exactly that legacy and horrid ideal to a lot lot lot of people. It was used as the battle flag under that rallying cry. That is it’s only real meaning. That flag was created solely for that exact purpose. It’s right there, in your face and directly obvious fact. We shouldn’t keep an icon of celebrating that kind of heritage alive.
It shouldn’t be illegal to own or display that flag- that would be slippery slope toward criminalizing any form of unpopular speech. But its use should be publicly prohibited by any government office, and people who do hold on to using it just laughed at and mocked for being out of touch with reality. Like O’Reily.
If there is something that can stand for southern pride, minus racist history- we should find it, and celebrate with that instead! Make Bill O’Riely eat his words. Give me a southern delicacy everyone in America likes- besides fried chicken (too much potential for stereotypes there yikes!) Maybe sweet tea? BBQ!
I proclaim we should start a movement to celebrate southern heritage with something everyone loves- BARBEQUE. Something, while debateable, essentially created by african americans- that everyone on the planet loves!
Quick- someone design a southern BBQ flag! Declare the Independant Republic of Brisket! There are great things about the south created by plenty of non racist people- I’d celebrate BBQ anyday!
Or at least I would. But it would seem making people’s deaths lighthearted fare. Lets do that after we take down the stars and bars, and greive for these people properly first.
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I understand the negative sentiment attached to the flag. But as an outsider (I’m from the UK) I can’t understand why the reaction is “let’s get rid of the flag” not “let’s get rid of the guns”.
The flag didn’t kill people. Could this anger not be turned to reducing the number of guns around instead?
Mass shootings of this kind really aren’t a thing outside the USA.
I hope Obama might be able to get some kind of progress on this in his last few months. Good luck to him.
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Because getting rid of guns would require a constitutional amendment which is effectively impossible whereas guilting state governments into pulling down a flag from 150 years ago is somewhat tenable.
Absolutely no one is talking about passing any laws banning the flag though. That would go right up against the right to free speech.
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That does make sense, but anger about that issue and demands that something be done about it do get expressed after every mass shooting, including this one. Obama tried (though halfheartedly, it seems) to do something about guns after the Newtown shooting of a couple dozen children, but little happened. Gun culture is too strong here, especially the power its special interest groups hold in Washington.
In this case, racism is the target (so to speak) because it was so clearly at the heart of this shooting, and because protests about police abuse of black people have already been so strong – this movement picks up on the momentum of that ongoing one. I think the flag is also a target because the killer was clearly so fond of it (as his selfies show), and because it’s such a ridiculously racist hangover from a war that its adherents lost a long time ago (and yet, it’s also such a common sight). One other reason – the flag is sanctioned by local and state governments in many official ways, with taxes provided by people of all races. That’s an insult to black people, especially, and taking down official flags, especially, is a way to at least end that insult. Overall, it’s a way of feeling like at least something tangible can be done, even though, yes, limiting the availability of guns would clearly do more.
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That’s interesting. I wonder… If the rebel flag had the phrase “Niggers ain’t people” in large fluorescent letters, would it still be chosen by said good ol’ boys? Because that’s really what the flag amounts to, historically speaking.
They could have chosen other rebellious flags and symbols, but instead have decided to use one that to this day is viewed by people as an expression of hatred toward a race, if not an explicit threat of violence, much like wearing gang colors.
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Perhaps, but the overall tide of history is moving inexorably towards a more enlightened world.
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