Growing up in Alabama, and living all over the South as an adult, the Confederate flag was everywhere. It’s true that it represents the Civil War and all that, but it’s also a symbol of Redneck America embracing their redneckery.
I know that a lot of people see that as terrible, but for a lot of people, there’s a stubborn, anti-mainstream pride in waiving the flag that really has nothing to do with their views on race and everything to do with stickin’ it to the man. I mean, not to say that being a racist jerk might not be part and parcel of being a redneck, but it’s more about the whole lifestyle: “FU, I grew up in a double-wide and I drive a pickup truck and by goddam I’m proud of it.”
I don’t see it as anything worth defending, but I’m definitely not the sort of person who goes around flying one off my pickup truck either. And I didn’t really hang with the crowd who did. But I’ve seen plenty of people who do fly the stars and bars and weren’t doing it really as part of any racial statement.
Race is complicated in the South. I’ve known plenty of folks who say the “N-word” but have a best buddy who is black, and plenty of people who go the other way - who would never say the “N-word” but never socialize with people of color. I’m willing to bet there are plenty that fly the Stars and Bars who really have no issue with African-Americans, as many as there are who display it as part of a racist creed.
I’d like to see the flag off the SC state capitol, and I’d like to see it taken out of all the state buildings in the South. However, I’m not sure that I am buying into the haterade on all the flag paraphenalia.
Although, the one strong image I have of the Rebel flag is the guys in their lowriders who would go around Stone Mountain flying huge flags off the backs of their trucks. The modern KKK started there and it was ABSOLUTELY a racist display. It chilled me to be out there seeing these kids (mostly guys in their 20’s) flying these huge flags.
It has that connotation, definitely, and it’s awful.
How about “Bill O’Reilly is a white supremacist”? Not a racist label, actually, because it’s not being applied to all members of the race, and because it’s true. Same with “Juan Williams is an Uncle Tom.”
And you shouldn’t, yes, there are a lot of good reasons to dislike owning and being proud of displaying gunsflags, but in light of such a tragedy gunsflags have to go.
No, it’s not the same, and if you can’t see why then I’m probably wasting my time here.
BTW, I’m well acquainted with Juan Williams, having listened to and read his work for more than twenty years. Juan doesn’t fit neatly into conventional partisan political categories, and he is quite accustomed to the racist uncle-tom epithet he gets he doesn’t make the list of “approved” black people. So congratulations, I guess, for once again putting him in his place.
Here’s a funny thing. I had to do a graphics job once with a bunch of different flags, and the Zimbabwe flag was one of them.
I scoured the intertron for examples, and it seems that no two flags agree. The bird sculpture image differs even across different Government departments. There seemed to be no standard.
That was a few years ago, mind.
But yeah, to say a flag represents bravery is like saying it represents fabric. And I should know, I come from a long line of families.
if our nation can’t do the trivially simple task of removing a banner that to millions of people represents america’s slave holding past, what possible chance do we have of addressing any issue of systemic racism in this country?
perhaps you’re saying the real issue is guns? it is also an issue. it’s just not the only one.
That’s patently false. Statistics I’ve seen say 60% of all people, but that breaks down to 75% of whites and 27% of blacks.* And how they define “ok” is somewhat arbitrary - do those 27% actually think it’s not a symbol of racism or do they just think it’s not worth making a fuss? Who knows.
I’d further argue that surveys about the Confederate flag are highly suspect; the reluctance to identify oneself as racist skews polls to show that a significant number of people who want the flag to remain think of it as a symbol of “southern pride” and not racism. This is just coded language; the flag is absolutely a symbol of support of slaver states and their rebellion against the United States of America. If there is pride in that, it is pride in racism and treason. So polls suggesting it should stay “for historical reasons” or because it’s “southern pride” are actually ways of saying that people support their racist and treasonous past.
** note the above poll numbers are in SC and prior to the recent mass-murder.
While they may have expressed the desire to not be (United States of) Americans, the resolution of Civil War demonstrated that they were indeed rebellious Americans.
They were graciously allowed to become U.S. citizens again, without any penalties even. But during the war, they were sworn citizens of another “country” and combatants against the U.S.
Well, technically, “black” is a racial category and “Latino” is an ethnic one – a single person can be both, and Williams self-identifies as black:
“Just consider the idea that Fox allows me the opportunity to sit in for Bill O’Reilly on their No. 1 show,” he said. “That’s the franchise. That’s the moneymaker. If that show falls in the toilet, it’s bad for the whole lineup. And yet Fox allows a black guy with a Hispanic name to sit in the big chair and host the show.”
You may very well be right on that one, I watched both shows and then fell asleep on the couch. Not the best for remembering details. Or specifics, or much of anything really. What was the question again?
(edit, I must still be asleep, I replied to my own comment, not ghostly1… derp)
to be fair, williams was on npr for a decade. and, he often had good reporting. it was his sidelining with fox that really brought out his crazy.
if you haven’t already heard it, this quote is choice – and, it, plus other comments while on fox about fear of flying with american muslims – resulted in his firing from npr.
“you think about liabilities for President Obama… Michelle Obama’s right there… she’s got this Stokely Carmichael-in-a-designer-dress thing going… if her instinct is to start with this ‘blame America,’ you know, ‘I’m the victim.’ If that stuff starts to come out people will go bananas.”
i suspect it’s something in the (multi-million dollar contractually obligated bottled) water…
fwiw: i, too, am actually a little uncomfortable about charged terms like “uncle tom”, and yet strangely – unless i’m misreading – @Nate_Meurer seems mostly upset there’s no reverse term for “white people who side with their black oppressors against a common interest for equality and justice.”
You mean the poll from November 2014 mentioned in this fivethirtyeight post? Peoples’ opinions change over time, particularly as new information comes to light or new events occur in the world. You should review the survey results from the update at the bottom of that page – if we’re going to allow majority rule, based on the newer poll conducted June 19-20, 2015:
churches should be able to bar people from carrying guns on their property (74%)
everyone who wants to buy a gun should be required to go through a criminal background check (90%)
government buildings should not be allowed to fly the Confederate flag (64%, with 15% of respondents saying “Not sure”)
“for a lot of people, there’s a stubborn, anti-mainstream pride in
waiving the flag that really has nothing to do with their views on race…”
Do you know anyone who’s actually like this though? I ask because I know a lot of confederate-flag-flying plains-folk, and to a person every one of them harbors at least some sort of reactionary racist instinct. Even though they may have black or hispanic friends, if the conversation turns to something like crime or immigration, they reliably start playing back fox news sound bites.
I personally don’t understand how one can be willing to adopt the very symbol of confederate rebellion in the defense of slavery, and avoid any kinship with the overwhelmingly racist culture that champions it.
‘People with Irish surnames in the US’ have a substantially elevated likelihood of a family history of togetherness problems with the British, so if I had to guess I’d imagine that he’d prefer nationalist paramilitaries to loyalist ones; but he’d certainly have no trouble with at least one of the two options.
However I have a Republican great uncle who also supports the SNP without admitting there is a political contradiction. For him it’s all about Scottish independence.
