Pope Francis wants to change a line in the Lord's Prayer


#1

Originally published at: https://boingboing.net/2017/12/08/pope-francis-wants-to-change-a.html


#2

It’s funny that he wants to change that line.

The Catholic I went to school to in New Orleans, we had to recite the Lord’s Prayer in French every day. I’ve been debating about whether I not I should get a tattoo around my right wrist with the phase “Et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation” - mainly as a reminder to exercise this thing called ‘self-control’ I’ve heard about…


#3

Our father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil;
for thine is the kingdom,
and the power,
and the glory,
forever.

…is how I was forced to memorize it. Along with the various creeds and commandments, and a fair number of carefully chosen bible verses, all of which were indelibly inscribed in my brain.

“Force” is an accurate, but perhaps unnecessarily harsh term. There was no punishment involved at any point… like the Boy Scout Oath and Law, it was a matter of repetition until it stuck.


#4

Papal pedantry?


#5

“Pope Francis wants to change a line in the Lord’s Prayer”

It’s not out of the realm of possibility that at one time someone named Francis wanted to set some ‘blow’ on a printout of the Lord’s Prayer then snort a line off it.


#6

Same here; the church my parents go to these days (which I attend during Christmas visits home, it’s one of those things) uses “debts” and “debtors” instead of “trespasses”, which does not work with my brain and I say it wrong every time.


#7

The bit about “thine is the kingdom” is the protestant variation (i.e., “thine, and not that awful Pope’s”). It’s not in the Catholic Lord’s Prayer.


#8

And don’t forget the choir songs, such as…

… “Gladly”, The Cross-eyed Bear.


#9

I’ve always thought that was a strange line.

As a kid it always sounded like God was trying to trick us up, and I know that a lot of Christians think that way (reference: the dinosaur fossils that God planted to test our faith), but even as a little, little kid that seemed like brain-dead theology.


#10

You are making it incredibly difficult to take the high road and not make a low-brow masturbation joke, you know that?


#11

In the LDS (Mormon) Church, the Joseph Smith translation of this line reads:

And suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil.


#12

Believe it or not, that wasn’t my intention. I was referring to the fact that I tend to eat - and occasionally drink - too much.

Plus… I use my left.


#13

Oh, got it, you don’t want to cheat on Lefty with that harlot Rightina.


#14


#15

Isn’t that from the Vulgate?
et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris;

The problem with this, as with the Pope’s translation of peirasmos in the next line, is that despite all the discussion we cannot be 100% sure of the meaning of a NT Greek word that itself is the translation of an Aramaic word, and that by people who probably were not really interested in fine points of detail. Those people weren’t rabbis steeped in Torah scholarship.

Part of the argument revolves around the meaning of Job, where God seems in some way to be in charge of Satan. If you believe that the Bible is the directly revealed word of God (in which case I have some shares in a gold mine to sell you) Job is problematic; if you think it’s a story put together from sources that were interested in a general message rather than a theological discussion that wouldn’t have made sense to people at the time of writing - it’s unimportant.


#16

He’s specifically referring to the line, “lead us not into temptation,” which is something he says God wouldn’t do, but rather “it is Satan” who leads us into temptation.

Job might disagree with that assessment. Heck, Jesus too. And Lot I suppose (or his wife).

This God fellow periodically does like to test people by leading them into temptation.


#17

I like to think of God and Satan in the Book of Job as basically the Duke brothers in Trading Places.


#18

That’s some commie shit right there!


#19

“O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.”


#20

Well, yes and know. Not in the standalone, sing-along-at-home version. But, IIRC, during Mass the congregation would recite the prayer together, then the priest would say something, and then the congregation would finish off with “For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, for ever and ever, amen.”