Punched Nazi loses tax-exempt status

You just asked me not to put words in your mouth, so I’d appreciate it if you would also not put words in my mouth. There is no place where I said that I wouldn’t believe that racism is a problem if I didn’t have hard data. I’ve said that I’ve not seen data which clearly shows that more white people are subscribing to the philosophy of white supremacy.

Who is saying what I’m saying. I believe in the right to be non-violent with people who are non-violent. You can argue that Spencer’s arguments advocate violence, but until he commits an act of violence or instructs others to so, he’s being non-violent. Malcolm X (his autobiography was one of the first books on race history in America that I ever read) was talking about defending himself from violence in a way that MLK was not prepared to do. In this regard, I agree with Malcolm X.

I agree![quote=“Mindysan33, post:127, topic:96998”]
They’ve happened all through out modern history and began with language aimed at groups of people. Always, they begin with words that dehumanize others. That is pretty much what connects all modern attempts to eliminate one set of people or another.
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They also happen within specific cultural contexts. The words that dehumanize others have to be part of the vocabulary of popular culture, in the newspaper editorials, in the speeches of politicians. That is not the case here, today. Racism is a huge problem, but it does nothing to address the problem to pretend that it exists in this country to the same degree and in the same way that it did prior to the 70’s.

I don’t need proof that it’s a problem, I need proof that it’s such a growing and increasingly dangerous problem that it justifies sucker-punching people on the street who have white supremacist philosophies.

There are, as you say, some very broad similarities. But our world, our society, our evolving culture is nothing like it was back then. Imagine trying to just walk down the street while being a mixed race couple or a gay couple or a transgendered person in the 1930’s. I think the difference is too dramatic to think that we would turn a blind eye to another Holocaust.

They were on the menu and in practice during the Obama administration, they just kept it on the DL.

Yes, I agree that resistance and action are important, but violence is the first sign that your ideas can’t compete. I think they can.

Which mainstream media sources gave Spencer a “serious hearing?” Where in the mainstream political discourse are conservatives talking about “peaceful ethnic cleansing” or any other of Spencer’s nutty ideas?

Fair enough. I’m only going by what you have said, or so I thought. Perhaps you weren’t clear on your meaning. Remember, we only have our words to go by.

There doesn’t have to be more people believe in white supremacy (which is really a meaningless metric, considering it has little to do with violence non whites might face in daily lives) for white supremacy to be a problem though. If the white supremacists that do exists feel emboldened, and the rest of white American sees no problem, it’s still a problem. [quote=“aikimo, post:130, topic:96998”]
You can argue that Spencer’s arguments advocate violence
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They absolutely do. When you talk about wanting a white country, that’s advocating for violence. [quote=“aikimo, post:130, topic:96998”]
The words that dehumanize others have to be part of the vocabulary of popular culture, in the newspapers editorials, in the speeches of politicians.
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Go read some Breitbart or Drudge Report, which are full of such things and have significant mindshare among many conservatives today. [quote=“aikimo, post:130, topic:96998”]
I need proof that it’s such a growing and increasingly dangerous problem
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I believe that the uptick in violence and death threats indicate that it is.

He advocates for ethnic cleansing this country. [quote=“aikimo, post:131, topic:96998”]
But our world, our society, our evolving culture is nothing like it was back then.
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What are the differences?

These people often experience discrimination on a daily basis. It may not be as bad as it once was, but it still exists.

NPR. The Atlantic. New York Times. Washington Post. NY Mag… Mother Jones:

More links here:

And let’s not forget that Steve Bannon is the current president’s right hand man and then there is this guy:

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It’s a matter of time frames. Is bigotry more acceptable in public discourse 2017 than it was in 1967? No. Is bigotry more acceptable in public discourse 2017 than it was in 2007? Definitely.

When you’re fortunate enough to have spent most of your life in an historically prosperous era where there’s lots of progress, subscribing to the Whig Theory of history is tempting. But it’s easy to forget how quickly things can be turned around and regress when times get tough and authoritarians appear to exploit them. For example:

You don’t have to imagine this. There are photos and magazines and books that depict just these things happening in Weimar-era Berlin in a way they didn’t in America until very recently, and no-one getting beat up. It was the world capital of bohemian debauchery and libertinism. That changed in the space of a few years. These things move fast, especially for those who aren’t paying close attention or who think “it can’t happen here.”

I know. Does that make the proposed and proudly public ramp-up of this embarrassment by his successor somehow less worrisome? Do you think their not keeping it on the DL now might indicate they’re seeing that it might be more acceptable in the current political atmosphere?

I happen to agree from my own place of privilege, but I’m not going to get worked up if someone else doesn’t when they’re dealing with no-kidding Nazis.

The brand-name MSM outlets that have been interviewing him, putting him on cable panel shows, writing longform articles about him in the studied tone of “objective reporting,” etc.

They’re couching it in euphemisms and chin-stroking “maybe he has a point in there” considerations, but the ultimate attitude toward Muslims and Latin-American immigrants is the same amongst some mainstream political conservatives.

Take for example, Rep. Steve King’s not-so-euphemistic statements in the past days. Are you really comfortable with an American Congressman saying these things? Are you indifferent to the fact that the GOP didn’t immediately condemn him and expel him from their caucus? Are you feeling easy with the idea that he remains popular with voters back in his Iowa district? When people talk about growth in the acceptability of white supremacism since 2015, this is the kind of thing they’re talking about.

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I agree. White supremacy is a problem. No doubt there.

It certainly is advocating for the forced removal of millions of people, which is, I think we agree, violent. But unless he’s creating an imminent threat of violence, he, himself, is being non-violent.

No, thank you! Gross! Seriously, I know, but I’m talking about mainstream newspapers. In places where genocide has been allowed to happen, the bigotry necessary was part popular and political vernacular in ways that just don’t exist here, anymore.

Fair enough.[quote=“Mindysan33, post:132, topic:96998”]
He advocates for ethnic cleansing this country.
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He advocates for making a little slice of white heaven in some part of this country. That is batshit insane, not actually dangerous. It’s as dangerous as Fred Phelps calling for homosexuals to be put to death. It’s crazy, but it’s not dangerous, because it’s not going to happen.

Come on. Really? How is today’s culture more accepting of people of color and other minorities than it was in the 1930’s. That’s too much typing, and you know it.

Of course, but nothing like they did 50 years ago, let alone 80 years ago. Again, yes, discrimination is still a problem, but it’s not constructive to pretend that it’s a problem now in the same way it was in the past.

Those were not “serious hearings.” Those were clickbait, sensation stories. They weren’t considering his positions, they’re warning people about them, even mocking them.

That’s only true if you think that words don’t matter and can’t hurt. They can and do. Again, ask anyone who has been attacked through language. It matters. [quote=“aikimo, post:134, topic:96998”]
No, thank you! Gross! Seriously
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Not a pleasant task, to be sure, but several intrepid happy mutants have decided to do so. Keep in mind that a significant number of Americans read these are their primary news sources now. And the president’s right hand man was the former chief editor.

You’re ignoring that the modern media (or postmodern media) does not function in the same way that the media of the past did. Think about how the president uses twitter and how different that is to how previous presidents have interacted with the public (even obama, who himself was on twitter). This is a vastly different media landscape that you’re just ignoring here. We don’t all get our news and information in the same place anymore, meaning that we often have different views of reality being told to us. [quote=“aikimo, post:134, topic:96998”]
He advocates for making a little slice of white heaven in some part of this country.
[/quote]

No. He wants to ethnically cleanse all of the US eventually. Whitefish is just a start. [quote=“aikimo, post:134, topic:96998”]
How is today’s culture more accepting of people of color and other minorities than it was in the 1930’s.
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Yet people of color, gay people, Jewish people, and women (especially non-conforming women) still face serious discrimination. Just because it’s better doesn’t mean it’s “fixed.”[quote=“aikimo, post:134, topic:96998”]
Those were not “serious hearings.”
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I disagree.

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I’ll need some examples to be convinced of this.

[quote=“gracchus, post:133, topic:96998”]
There are photos and magazines and books that depict just these things happening in Weimar-era Berlin in a way they didn’t in America until very recently, and no-one getting beat up. That changed in the space of a few years.[/quote]

That’s a good point. Still, antisemitism and racial bigotry still existed and were promulgated by mainstream papers and politicians in Europe at the time. Sentiments which simply are unacceptable in mainstream culture, today.

They do see it as more acceptable. But I think it has more to do with their base than with appealing to mainstream America. That said, I think white supremacy and xenophobia are related, but separate issues.

As I said above, these are sensationalist stories, meant to frighten and titillate. None of them involved talking to any politicians who agreed with Spencer, because only a few, local, crazy ones do.

I’ve not seen any examples of this, myself.

I’m happy with the fact that many of his GOP colleagues and editorial staff in conservative areas condemned his words and stupid, stupid thoughts. That he’s not expelled I don’t think is evidence of white supremacy. But there were plenty of conservatives who spoke up against him. And let’s remember that CPAC kicked Spencer out, which surprised even me.

Okay, folks, since none of us are Nazis, I think it’s time to agree to disagree that unilateral violence is a valid solution to terrible ideas. Frankly, I’m exhausted. But I appreciate your thoughts and some of your challenges.

I actually think if we were all at a table (perhaps with refreshments and snacks, even) we would find we agree more than we disagree on most things, and we would disagree on this topic with a better humor and somewhat less vitriol. It’s a weakness in the format.

I’m off, so my best to you all.

For conservatives, those (meaning Breitbart and Drudge) are quickly becoming mainstream sources. At the very least, the president is using them as sources for angry tweets and the development of public policy.

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Once again, the closest adviser to the president is a white supremacist.

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Right. We have a fragmented electorate, who are getting their news from very different sources. There is no unified media which everyone turns to as a source of information. Not everyone reads the NYT and listens to NPR.

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that thought and a nickel will get you a coffee at wall drug.

I’m going to get back to not giving up now. See you at the dog-track.

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you say we a lot for someone so passively accepting of ‘othering’.

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Hate to burst your bubble, but you might need to get out more.

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I been reading this and thinking that the reason why there’s Nazis in the White House is because we just haven’t been punching enough of them.

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Wow…

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I’ll take your word for it.

Not all of the soldiers in the Wehrmacht were card-carrying Nazi party members. The weird thing is though, if you fight on behalf of Nazis, history tends to lump you in with the people you’re fighting for.

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And? Don’t punch him.

Is it really a difficult concept? In a civilised society we don’t gratuitously punch people, whoever they happen to be.

In a civilised society, we don’t advocate for ethnic cleansing, either. It seems special rules apply to Nazis.

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