Isn’t that just like a Richard Spencer rally?
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Yep - the one who’s literally out of control with their feelings and behaviors isn’t the emotional one. Because penis.
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It’s a false dichotomy, because power is about sex. Although on evolutionary reductive level, basically everything is about sex.
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The idea he somehow ever didn’t know this behavior was wrong is complete bullshit. Own up up to it, ffs.
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What I see in these discussions is that power is the crux here. And what makes it muddier, is that some statements indicate that the power dynamics were not seen the same by all participants. There are statements by the guy where he seems to have not recognised the power he had until later.
And this is not going to be solved so easily. Things that are acceptable amongst equals are abuse when one person has a dominant position over the other. And the other problem is that power is always in flux, and may not be perceived the same by both at all times. Person A may think B is an equal, but B may be all too aware that A is the employer, and thus has the power over B whether A recognises it or not. Or A may treat B as having power, although A and B are equals. Or A may be promoted. All making what was acceptable last week unacceptable now. Or what was acceptable between A and B is not acceptable between A and C.
Between two consenting adults is not the issue. Really, the only issue here is consent. And recognising honest consent is not easy, but necessary. And that is why it is so easy to see that Harvey Weinstein was wrong, but not so easy to see it with Louis C.K. because he claims he thought at the time it was consensual. Weird and icky, but consensual. Which we now know it wasn’t.
It’s all weird and troubling because we are now stuck between celebrating the weird, edgy and icky, the mutations and risks, but we also see more and more how people get hurt now and then by the weird, the edgy, the icky.
But we are learning. It may suck for Louis C.K. personally, but it helps the next guy down the road. And he didn’t become a Lenny Bruce or a Bill Cosby along the way. So I have hope that things are getting better—a little better all the time.
I reject the idea out of hand that he somehow is merely confused about social decorum or acceptable behavior or thought that Silverman was an example of what he could expect out of other women. Despite everyone saying oh but it’s so confusing and gray areas and what if this and that - to me this seems remarkably simple.
- Did he ever ask a superior who had the power to hire and fire him, the power to destroy his career, who had the power to say “he asked me this creepy inappropriate request can you believe it?” and no matter how much he denied it their word would carry more weight - did he ever ask THAT person if he could masturbate in front of them?
- did he ask someone from OUTSIDE HIS FIELD where his name held no sway, who could return to their own field and be like “man I dealt with the worst creep today!” and be listened to by peers who didn’t know him and had no incentive to keep them quiet or do the dirty work of denying them on his behalf to save their own careers, thus burning bridges he may need later when dealing with that separate field again?
- Did he ever make this request in a setting where he had no control over the narrative, for example, while being recorded or viewed by an unsympathetic audience or in front of an authority figure who had no investment in his success or failure?
No? Then he knew the power dynamics at play well enough to avoid being on the wrong end of them. Tada!
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Probably, for all three questions, actually. He has to have hooked up with fans over the years, technically his employers/outside his field/outside of a controlled setting. We only have the people who disliked the proposition and victims of the acts, and one equal who participated. If the people who were neutral or enjoyed the act aren’t saying anything, it is indeterminate. Took quite a bit of courage for Silverman to come out with this in the current climate.
I have doubted the power dynamics data as the main component of sexual assault, even 20 years ago taking a Women’s Studies class reading the details of the studies in intro texts. To be brutally honest, as both a victim and perpetrator of various levels of sexual assaults in my youth, boiling down everything to the power dynamic is self serving to a particular branch of Feminist agenda. Because, from my perspective in the perpetrator shoes, I had no conscious thought of the power imbalance or intimidation present. My sole motivator at those instances was seeking immediate sexual release and affection. As a victim of a series of assaults by one perpetrator, there I felt a loss of agency and control that still impacts my life. In another instance I was assaulted, I only actually feel pity for my attacker, and recognize the instance of them desperately seeking affection that I wouldn’t normally give. So sitting in a Women’s Studies class reading power dynamic theories and hearing class discussions, I was confused, and it took years for me to see why certain social scientists were formulating things in these terms.
Yes, power can be a component. Yes, the victim feels a loss of power. But only victims have come forward until Silverman spoke out. How many groupies have hooked up with CK in this fashion?
So I get that I probably have many victims raging out on me when I question a theory that may be helping them put their life back together, or regain a sense of control, but I find the whole thing too reductionist to accept. Sorry.
I can’t say I’m terribly convinced. I’ve never been to college so I can’t address whatever your women’s studies class was like or what they talked about or how they use the word power or power dynamics.
What I can say is that it seems simply obvious that people are usually at least somewhat conscious of who they are talking to at any given time and what that person can or cannot do to them in their lives. No one is perfectly aware of all consequences of their actions, nor able to discern exactly what is going to exact a toll, but if people had no awareness at all, if people simply did whatever they felt like for no other reason than they wanted to, I feel like the world would look vastly different. There’d be a lot less hiding of behavior, less lying, less gaslighting, people would more often behave exactly the same regardless of who they were interacting with, who was witness to their behavior and who would hear about it later.
If you think no one ever lies about how they treated someone because they know the person they are speaking to now would think less of them or take something away they desired, if you think no one has ever held their tongue in one situation because they knew it could hurt them but let loose when it was someone else… well, I can’t say I recognize that world.
And that’s all I mean. People are different in different scenarios. In some situations they behave one way, in another they behave differently, because the stakes are different. “I was not aware the stakes were lower for me in that moment I wasn’t thinking about that!” is, to me, a bit like saying, “I did not think about how much money I had, I just bought a candy bar because I wanted one” as if, if you were flat broke and needed that dollar for gas money or else be stranded in the middle of nowhere, you would have been exactly as unconscious about it. Sure, maybe you are exactly that absent, people probably do that sometimes, but I think way more often, when the stakes are higher, people think differently and casual decisions become dire.
Also I’m not taking “probably” for an answer on that. You’re presuming that bosses, cops, landlords and strangers on the street all just universally loooove Louie’s dick and would never consider mentioning it while young new female comedians have a problem with it which is a way weirder premise than “power exists” so you’re gonna have to do better than that.
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In what way?
This is exactly what the feminist theory is getting at. It’s not meant to be an explanation of rapists’ feelings . It’s a way of understanding the social and cultural structure that sexual assault and rape occur within.
Edit: a word
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The audience says what they think of him as well. Doesn’t make it right just because there’s an audience for it.
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I never said anything about right or wrong. I’m pointing out how the entertainment industry operates especially when it comes to comedians. No matter what anyone says, it’s ticket sales and laughs that determine success. This at once speaks to the question of forgiveness and to the question of indifference.
You can be upset about this. It can bother you. It can make you mad. That won’t matter. The only thing that will matter is if he fails to sell tickets and fails to get laughs. If that happens his career is over. Otherwise, expect to see him at a comedy club near you.
I won’t be seeing him at a comedy club near me. He should expect that.
And if it becomes so socially unacceptable to hire him - he won’t be. Bill Cosby’s bookings dropped off pretty well.
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Well, this conversation just got creepy as fuck.
Only ‘yes’ means yes…
I think it’s time to post Schaffer the dark lord’s consent song again:
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Appropriate…
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I’m going to cut off this conversation here.
Even Louis, looking at back at his behaviour, realized the power imbalance present in the situation. He had ignored it with his behaviour.
Fixing this issue does not require clearly defining and resolving power to the nth degree, because this happens every day in situations that any reasonable person would accept as being inappropriate given the power disparity of those involved. This conversation has devolved into “Well, how can we do this unless we can clearly define power in all cases”. This doesn’t happen for almost every situation with anything in real life, yet progress is made.
A further discussion that informed consent and determining power dynamics as being a problem relating to this specific post is going to be considered offtopic from this point on. As I said, the perpetrator, in this case, did not indicate either of these points was actually an issue here. Louis knows it was wrong once he bothered to consider the dynamic.
Thanks.
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I was recently at a standup show where people were doing comedy about their recovery with mental illness. Powerful stuff, I hope Mr C.K. can write this kind of material. But the catch is, of course, that first you kinda have to do the actual work of recovery.
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Banging beats and i fucking love the ending.
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‘Pretty fly for a White guy,’ huh?
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