I’m not upset with you, and we’re not having an argument we’ve having a conversation. 
If you have any specific feedback on how I can make you feel less attacked, feel free to to let me know.
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Where things get fishy with George H. W. Bush is the fact that many different women have come forward with largely the same story. Then it becomes a story of “he said: these 6 unrelated women said:” As such, I’m very much inclined to believe the women. These women have also largely had confidants who heard about the incidents at the time and corroborate “yes, she said this happened”; I see little chance of fabrication here or of some kind of anti-GHWB conspiracy.
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Six is a significant pattern. In which case it becomes even more interesting that I, as someone who really doesn’t like Bush Sr. just from his policies and never have, hadn’t even heard of this. I’d only heard of the more recent one, as far as harassment is concerned.
So that does provide an even clearer picture of how left vs. right are operating in the US right now. The left pushed pretty hard at Franken, even though he responded pretty quickly with a full apology, request for investigation, etc. The right has yet to even have a discussion about Bush Sr., and is still in full “whataboutism” mode with Roy Moore and Trump.
But in any case, it’s about us and how we fit our values. Which is why it is worth investigating Franken as well as Roy Moore and Trump - and not just ignore Franken.
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I don’t know why people are finding this such a hard concept to wrap their heads around?
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This has been debunked.
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I think it was a Faux Grope.
Sorry, but you need to get under a flac jacket to really grope well.
It may have been a faux grope. But I don’t think that’s relevant. Showing the photo serves to frame the period of time in which the real meat of the allegation took place.
(How closely did you read the article?)
I think it’s possible that there might be something to be gained with this story for the victim, given her associations. But what she stands to gain isn’t mutually exclusive from the truth of what she experienced. Let’s put it another way: If she was assaulted, and she is using it to further her career with Fox News, we should still care about the story, and Franken should still be liable for the consequences of his actions.
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No, dont get me wrong, this is never acceptsnle BTW. Just saying that the photo to me seems not to show contact.
French kissing is.
I disagree with a lot of your comment, a lot. Having said that, I agree with some of it, and thank you for thoughtfully progressing an important conversation.
The consciousness of the target is an ethical prerequisite for certain jokes. This is not a first amendment issue that will destroy comedy as we know it.
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“If AL Frankens predicament is qualitatively different from Roy Moores, then it should be possible to distinguish them by the facts that are publicly known, not on the partisan basis of their unrelated politics.”
They are different, What Moores did was 100 times worse than what Frankens did. He should still resign.
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I don’t know the answer to your first sentence, but I disagree with your second sentence.
He’s been decent on some issues. He is a liberal. He supported all of Obama’s war efforts, including the disgusting action in Libya. He has shown no inclination for any kind of serious address of the economic issues facing us.
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So we have to stop making fun of Trump?
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Do you want Franken’s head on a platter, too? Or will just his tongue do?
this is a thread about Franken and his behavior, not Moore. Why bring him up at all, if not to derail the conversation and help excuse or minimize Franken’s behavior? Yes, Moore is worse, but that does not excuse or minimize what Franken did - EVEN HE ADMITS THAT!
How about we hold men responsible for their actions here? Or should we just walk around covered up, lest we inflame men? I’m unsure how you think women being within the system that privileges men over women, and we’re still to blame for what men do to us?
And what about when you raise a boy and he still ends up a POS sexist pig? We aren’t the only influence on the lives of our children.
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Just going to leave these here:
Edited to include this relevant excerpt from the second link:
"Let’s say I that I didn’t mean to sexually harass anyone, but someone says I did or said something that made them feel harassed and uncomfortable. What then?
One, an actual apology is good. Two, don’t do it again to them or anyone else.
But why should I apologize? I didn’t mean to do it!
Okay, and?
Look, let me be blunt with you: That person calling you out on a behavior that made them feel unsafe? They’re doing you a favor. If your behavior, intentional or not, is creepy enough that someone was compelled to say something to you about it, there are probably others who thought the same thing but didn’t say it — or didn’t say it to you. So the person actually saying it is like a person who pulls you aside and says “Dude, your breath smells like a cat shat on your uvula, maybe partake in a mint,” except instead of halitosis they’re talking about you skeeving everybody out with your words and/or actions. Thank them! In that context, a sincere apology is an excellent thank you, followed by adjusting your behavior.
But why should I change the way I do things? If they have a problem with how I say or do things, it’s their problem, not mine.
Fine, don’t.
Wait, what?
Dude, I’m not the boss of you. If you want to continue to make people uncomfortable with your presence and actions, then follow your bliss. Just don’t expect to have a whole lot of friends who aren’t complete assholes. Also, be aware that if you keep that shit up, there’s an excellent chance that sooner or later five or six people are going to speak out about you and your asshole actions, all at the same time, and then you’ll be in the same boat as the “actual” harassers, i.e., being an actual harasser, because you didn’t think you had to learn."
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Adding to that this TED talk by Jackson Katz that was referenced yesterday in NPR’s interview with him. (Still looking for that link.). I promise you it will be seventeen minutes well spent:
NPR reported that Katz has given over 2600 such talks over the last thirty years. Seems that his message has more ears than ever now. He certainly has mine.
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/me stands up, applauds
I agree wholeheartedly and without reservation.
