Read the article, its more than just the photo. And Al copped to it.
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Re: groping allegations (which are not regarding the picture, but the rehearsal for a skit that had a kiss written into the script), I think there would be zero mention of this among conservatives at all if he were a Republican.
I’m not recalling anything much happening at all re: the groping allegations against George H. W. Bush.
I can’t speak for others who may be accusing Tweeden of lying. I’m not doing that. Of course it’s very possible that anyone of any political persuasion or belief system can be a scumbag, whether they agree with my politics or not.
I do think that, in a situation where there’s so far only one accusation with no corroboration, other evidence or any indications of a pattern, that it’s reasonable to say that both people’s words are equal.
By the way, I also consider this to be the case re: the allegations against George H. W. Bush. Just one person’s word against one other person’s word with nothing else to back it up is not enough.
In addition, of course, to the fact that Tweeden has accepted Franken’s apology and Franken has asked for a full ethics investigation of himself.
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Trying to disentangle all the things wrong with this argument would be like disentangling a moldy mess of yarn: absurdly difficult and not even remotely worth it.
Not an uncommon precaution for anyone being transported through a war zone. Embedded reporters wear that kind of thing all the time.
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The actual groping incident is a separate claim she made, regarding a dressing room rehearsal for a skit that had an onstage kiss already written into it.
Update: apparently Tweeden also at least initially said this photo was evidence he groped her in his sleep, which she wasn’t aware of until she saw this photo.
I think that’s pretty clearly not shown by this picture at least. It’s obviously not in secret, his hands are clearly not touching her, etc.
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So what is the point of the pic?
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To build a case?
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If I were a celebrity with this kind of nonsense in my past, I would avoid denial at all costs. Admit wrongdoing, perform an act of contrition and avoid any funny business which is not consensual going forward.
The public is quick to forgive provided that nobody got killed, no animals were harmed, and everyone involved were consenting adults.
Because it’s relevant, and a bit funny.
Just googled this. Apparently she dug back and found the photo, and considers it evidence that he groped her while she was sleeping.
I don’t think that’s credible for many reasons, including that this is obviously a public picture with witnesses, he’s not actually touching her, and she’s wearing a flak jacket.
Obnoxious, sure, for which he readily apologized now and 11 years later. But not groping. Which might also be why she accepted his apology.
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When this news broke, she did say that he groped her while sleeping. It will be interesting to see this develop.
Believe her and believe him while understanding the narrative seems to allow for both acceptance and doubt.
Then, investigate. Get answers. Act accordingly.
Do we not do this anymore? (Take this rhetorically and cynically)
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Nope, the groping was claimed to have happened during the photo (“I couldn’t believe it. He groped me, without my consent, while I was asleep.”), the other allegation was that he repeatedly tried, until she eventually acquiesced, to kiss her (there was no alleged groping there, but she did say he forced his tongue in her mouth).
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That’s what people say when they don’t have a good counter argument.
I genuinely hope if one of your loved ones or even yourself is abused or harassed it isn’t met with a wall of doubt and squinty eyes over the timing.
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Franken isn’t even the smarter liberal Senator in his own state’s delegation, let alone the smartest liberal in the Senate.
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That’s perhaps one situation in which that might be true. Another is that the same person couldn’t even begin to want to address with why the statements in the response were problematic. But, you caught me on a good day, I’ll go ahead and try anyways:
this should be taken as the person who wrote this understands the fundamental issue at hand, rather they would like to discuss something as relatively separate (though related) to this issue (if that’s even possible for some people, which in your case clearly doesn’t appear to be the case)
Here, the person is asking a simple question: given the social norms associated with the issue, is there a possibility that a social response could be manufactured by nefarious agents? What is interesting is that your responses certainly at least confirm some of this, in that you were willing to attack and use rather blatant derogatory language. No, I wasn’t being derogatory to you: I really still think your argument is that terrible.
Also a simple question, but without a simple answer: how would one know whether the evidence is real or manufactured to induce the types of responses mentioned above?
This is certainly true, but it is relevant to the questions only because you seemed to ignore them completely. It is exactly this issue (and the fact that you react so strongly to this) that would make the question of this of the validity or the associated motive difficult in public discourse.
No, obviously, because you have no reasonable motive for doing so. I’m not sure how you made this immense leap in logic, but it’s really quite problematic.
I think you’re operating on some priors here about who you’re talking to (like I need to be educated). This probably wasn’t the best assumption.
Now, given all of that, can you step away from your knee-jerk reactions and your rage and at least understand that I am not saying we should protect the perpetrators. Can you also recognize the irony that you also confirmed the sort of “social stigma” associated with questioning the victim might serve other goals.
Why are these questions relevant? Because there are many and more here who are actively concerned about the manufacture of public ideas. Is it possible that this is the case here? Well, we have motive and the response is predictable (as you’ve demonstrated), and seems to be having an effect that would benefit said agents. The evidence is also questionable (half this thread is dedicated to teasing this out), at least in relationship to the degree of response. So yes: maybe it’s in the realm of possibility (though of course we should never enable the perps or blame the victims under any circumstances).
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And that there is EXACTLY the same reason you have conservatives doing gold medal worthy mental acrobatics excusing his behavior. Note I am not saying that what Moore did is worse, but they are willing to excuse it rather than lose political power.
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I’m not sure if you’re responding to my updated comment, or my previous one? But yes, I googled it and she did initially charge that the photo shows him groping her while she was asleep.
She also did not recall him groping her as she slept - she just claimed that this photo was evidence of that. Which it actually is not - again, he is not actually touching her, besides the fact that she is wearing a flak jacket.
She was unaware of the alleged assault until sometime afterwards. “It wasn’t until I was back in the US and looking through the CD of photos we were given by the photographer that I saw this one”:"
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You edited after I replied.
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