Fair enough then. : )
^this
OK good.
Re: @Brainspore 's original reply, it was snarky, but it was a reply as to the comment over concern to timing - which you seemed to think was an attempt to compare Franken to Moore.
Yep, I get it. But I guess my counter would be:
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What would the reasoning be to ‘manufacture a response’?
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What evidence do you have for any nefarious agents? What even makes you think there are such agents?
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Why is the social norm doubt of a woman’s story in the first place? IMO that is rather fucked up.
I guess one may want to clarify what you think my argument is - as well as what yours is. I assume your argument is:
Again - what evidence do you have it is?
Hitchens’ razor: “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”
Because your argument holds no water with out something more. I could say that it is “concerted effort of the Reptillians”, and while being more silly, has the same amount of evidence for it.
Also Occam’s razor: “When faced with competing hypotheses, select the one that makes the fewest assumptions.”
Your argument requires a “concerted social manipulation effort”, which, while possible, I am not willing to consider as truth with out evidence.
Well your original question as to the timing was answered by both Brainspores satire, and my answer.
You have no obvious reasonable motive for being bothered by the timing of this woman either. If she is part of some concerted effort, why wouldn’t I be as well? Because I am not accusing someone famous? If there is some sort of social manipulation going on, they will need 1000s of nobody foot soldiers echoing abuse on a common level. You have just as much reason to doubt me as anyone else.
Or - you know - there is just tons of abuse going on and its been kept in the shadows and now is in the spot light.
I assumed you didn’t know either what the Onion was - or you just read the headline and thought Franken was being compared to Moore because your reply seemed to both miss the humor and the point he was making.
Sorry - what is the motive here? I mean I think I know what you think it is - but I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
Yet much of this questioning does just that. Especially the stuff that is basically claiming conspiracy.
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Hordes of people making excuses. 
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Well, I’m not just talking about the photograph.
I love this response so much. I had a discussion with Mr. Jilly tonight about this very thing. I asked him, “Are you sure you’ve never inappropriately approached a woman, even in what you considered jest?” After he clutched his pearls and adamantly insisted he’s no Roy Moore, we had a healthy discussion. You needn’t have grabbed a pussy to make a woman feel unnecessarily uncomfortable.
This is a watershed moment and if we choose to recognize it, an opportunity for all men to examine their interactions with women. If we can step back from political and other affiliations (I love Franken too), we have an unprecedented moment to engage in true dialog about sexual harassment and assault.
I beg of you to listen: When a woman finally finds the courage to speak out about an event, no matter how long ago, it is with rare exception that it is for personal gain. She has lived with that moment of harassment and/or assault for years and should be applauded for her courage to go in front of cameras and re-live it.
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https://twitter.com/walkerbragman/status/931249415440011265
I could do my usual rant here about Eichenwald and the rest of the CorpDems not actually being “the left” (because they aren’t). But that’s beside the point in this case; the actual left is not immune to this bullshit either.
Intersectionality cuts both ways; someone can be fine on race and class but a total shithead on gender. And it isn’t hard to find examples of dodgy plutocratic white feminism, either.
Gender, race and class; the Axis of Oppression. Gotta fix 'em all.
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Yeah, definitely wagon-circling. Absolutely nobody just straight up calling for Franken to resign or otherwise being pretty harsh about it. Just wagons, circling in the night. Yup. Absolutely.
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From the photo I thought the article was going to be about John Noble. Glad I was wrong about that.
Al: Yes, isn’t it? Let’s see what else we can find that will jog your memory. Unless there’s something you want to apologise for?
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I checked over at Daily Kos how they would cover this story, and there it is claimed that the quote from the photographer is fake, created by Russian bots trying to make the debate more toxic by egging both sides on. You have to be extremely careful about believing stuff you see nowadays.
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Skimming this thread ^^^
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Which he has done, and she has accepted
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This is a salient point, in that a lot of “lefties” or “people those libtards love” will now also be heavily scrutinised. The whataboutism is in full deployment now.
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I’m a woman and I agree with you.
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They will say that whether he stays or goes. I’d rather have him there fighting for us.
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I am also a woman and mother of two attractive young women who are currently finding their place in the world in male dominated fields while also trying to hold on to their gest for life and fun and a sense that the world is their oyster ripe for the picking.
This post will be controversial, but bear with me:
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Hillary Clinton, a woman who refused to use her sexuality / charm in advancing her position / her work has been vilified as the incarnation of evil, as some robotic, inhuman monster unworthy of empathy, including by the holier than holy left. People have tried to negate her entire life’s work on the basis that she is not womanly…feminine. Not to mention the accusations relating to her marriage.
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Trump, a man who explicitly and implicitly has described women in public life in general as well as in his private life as sex objects is President. Without any repercussion. He was an associate of a man who has been convicted of not merely raping underaged girls but pimping them. Women in his vicinity have been put into positions of power solely based on their virtue of being feminine and compliant (see FOTUS & Ivanka).
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Leeann Tweeden, who until yesterday was unknown to me, appears to be to all intents and purposes a woman who has built a career on objectifying her own body. It is really difficult to find a fully dressed image of her online. Thus being complicit as a consenting adult in a culture which objectifies young women and emphasises their sexuality over everything else. This is her choice and she is free to do so. But I do want to point out that that choice has consequences for other young women–e.g. my daughters. Women can be complicit in a culture which fears female power and tries to tame it / make it more palatable under the guise of irresistible sexualised femininity.
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Roy Moore pried and pursued young girls who explicitly rebuffed his interest. He had relations with girls who were below the age of consent. His activities were criminal.
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Sexual relations are complicated to negotiate (unless minors are involved–which makes things blatantly clear). They are complicated among consenting adults who are free agents and they get extraordinarily complicated when power is added to the mix. See Weinstein who could make or sink an actress’ career. Although Franken was probably in a more powerful position than Tweeden, their is no indication that her future in any significant way depended on pleasuring Al Franken. The indications are that the Franken story is a very different situation from that of Cosby or Weinstein.
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I came across Emily Sears yesterday and in this tweet she does seem to have an answer.
The only trouble is that even, or maybe especially among consenting adults the signs of when / whether someone is turned on is not immediately clear. It has to be negotiated, respectfully with care for the other and the self. Even in long term relationships this negotiation is complicated, seldom unambiguous almost always grey. Small things can trigger changes in how we feel. From one moment to the other we can be turned off by something incongruous. We make mistakes and re-negotiate, start again which is why in all these cases consent is the central issue.
It would be great if out of the current upheaval something akin to acknowledging the grey zones of human sexual relating would emerge. If we could arrive at a place where discussing the difference between gross abuse of power and criminal activity see Epstein / Trump / Weinstein / Moore / Cosby and who knows who else and making a fuck up of negotiating sexuality in a generally fucked up society, between consenting adults would be allowed without brushing everyone with the same brush.
But most importantly it would be good if we could arrive in a place where women, especially young women can be sexual in the public realm and / or a-sexual and fiercely focused on their intellectual skills like Clinton without being dehumanised.
If we could leave a world to our daughters and sons where the most important tool they have in negotiating this world is themselves, their consent that would be a win. They, we need to feel that we can change our mind and withdraw consent any time any where, that is the kind of human relating that we should strive for one where, when a woman (or man) says no it is heard as no. Not some kind of moralistic nirvana where people just never f**** up.
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I’m glad that we’re really bringing out a cultural discussion of sexual propriety; we might even end up making significant progress.
Because, let’s face it, we have a deeply problematic society when it comes to this.
We see sexuality as deeply personal, serious, and meaningful, with consent (and one’s ability to give it) and transgressions against it of paramount importance.
But… we also see it as playful, silly, and humorous, and accept (even expect and encourage) a certain degree of depersonalised fixation on it, of aggressive borderline-predatory behaviour to ‘win’ people over; of thoughtless manipulation, basically.
It’s no wonder that a lot of men, like myself, are looking back at our pasts and wondering if what we thought was good-natured, acceptable behaviour was just being awful in a society that tolerated it. And some men, of course, react badly to that idea. Mostly the ones who like engaging in that kind of behaviour. The ones that don’t like being told that
Let’s face it: we’re all morally tainted by living in a morally tainted world. With regard to Franken, and with my opinions of this coloured by my opinions of him:
The picture itself is… more of an indication that our society no longer views sexual aggression as a humorous topic, even when done with parodic intent, and especially when done without full consent. The photo shows the framing of a joke (albeit one that fell flat), with no actual physical contact.
Franken’s apology seems utterly sincere, and accepting of both responsibility and all the issues around it; without further allegations or revelations, that’s enough for me. An ethics investigation would be welcome if judged warranted.
The kissing thing is what is of concern–that’s where it looks like any real transgression might have occurred. And what happened there is… well, I don’t know. There’s a he-says, she-says, muddied-water aspect to this that is uncomfortable both because we shouldn’t shrug it off, and because one can’t help but wonder if this is somewhat politically motivated.
I’d say at this point that I don’t think Franken’s done anything terrible, but we should find out for sure… without prejudicing ourselves unduly in the process. And if he has acted badly, he must face the consequences.
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Wow. That was beautifully stated and powerful. Thank you for sharing those thoughts, they’ve really rang a bell with me on this topic and helped clarify some of the confusion I myself have had while trying to process and work through them. Kudos.
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Oh boy, does this picture suck. I am disappointed that he behaved this way. While it only makes the picture slightly less bad, he is not in fact groping her in this photograph. It is a “joke” that is obviously not funny, a middle-aged congressman should know better than to do things like this.
Since I feel like people are generally aware of things they may or may not do in a given situation, I unfortunately have to assume that he did kiss her inappropriately, even if he legitimately doesn’t remember. You would expect an answer like, “I would never do something like that.”, not that answering “correctly” is actually an indicator of guilt or innocence.
This is especially upsetting as he was one of the more visible and vocal opponents of the Trump regime. I wonder about the timing of this, actually. Of course, this could have all been avoided if he didn’t act like an ass in the first place.
