Seven dead, seven injured in Santa Barbara rampage shooting

Okay…
Not sure how that’s on topic. Basically, if I understand your intent, you’re suffering from the genetic fallacy: claiming that because you don’t approve of current sources I’m using (your article claims few truly scientific sources exist) that their provided data must be bad. (If that isn’t what you meant, I have no idea why you wrote to me.) Logic doesn’t work that way. The source doesn’t matter, only the quality of the information does.

What I posted was a spread of research, from varying sources, with some of it containing data going back to the mid-60s. Even with changes in political influence, I’ve provided about as a good data spread as you’ll get without bothering to do some research yourself. I also included information on where my sources got their data from. I checked that before I used them as sources. I’m pretty sure that’s how you play fair.

And that is one of my biggest frustrations in the debate. I don’t think most ideas people propose would do any good what so ever in reducing gun crime, or at best perhaps a very small effect that doesn’t begin to justify the cost. I don’t see how one can look at the issue and come up with the answer of a “clear yes”.

Actually, some of them I could see working to a degree if it weren’t for the fact that there were already millions of guns around. The only way for those laws to have an effect would be if guns magically disappeared, and then people were allowed to buy them under the new rules. Of course this is a fantasy that could never happen, so I don’t know why people are so willing to pursue an unworkable solution. I think some people just find security in the idea of doing SOMETHING, even if it doesn’t actually do anything.

Jesus wants his cross back

He stabbed his first three victims.

Look at what we consider “entertainment”: brutal crime lords (Tony Soprano), serial killers (Hannibal, Dexter) junkie nurses (Nurse Jackie), drug manufacturing ex-teachers (Breaking Bad), porn actor teachers (Hung), soccer moms growing marijuana (Weeds), corrupt and murderous politicians (House of Cards): we’re Rooting for the Bad Guy. We’re watching television shows about people living secret lives, breaking the rules, doing whatever they want to do, regardless of who they hurt. And we’re not watching to see them get caught: we’re watching because we’re on their side: we want them to keep getting away with wrongdoing. Every holiday weekend we’re force-fed movies that contain gleeful & gratuitous brutality & violence, car chases, things blowing up. Brutal martial arts-type physical violence slowed down and made to look artistic and beautiful. And we wonder why things like Santa Barbara happened? I’m surprised they’re not happening every day. And pretty soon, they will: stuff like this is gonna increase because we’re driving ourselves crazy, poisoning ourselves with what we’re taking in, the things we can’t unsee and unthink and undo. Right now, kids are being raised on horrors that would make an objective outsider from a prior generation think we, as a society, had lost our mind. Sooner or later, chickens come home to roost. We’ll be seeing “Santa Barbara” again before we know it.

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i’ll try to clear things up – i was posting on my phone, maybe it was too brief.

in response to my telling someone i liked their use of language, specifically the word “gerrymandering” with regards to gun crime:

[quote="catgrin]
I gotta tell ya, you have just become part of the problem.
Some “sciencey” references for you.[/quote]
and, then you posted links to paranormal research.

that seemed pretty unfair, and off topic.

i then posted a link to an article about the way political donations influence gun statistics reporting. ( ie. “gerrymandering” of gun violence. )

i appreciated a bunch of your other posts. but, obviously something has gone off the rails.

it’s probably because i’m not a gun owner that the cost ( to me ) doesn’t seem so high.

we’re a huge outlier in terms of gun violence and deaths. ease of access to guns isn’t the only cause, but it is a cause. in a land of bicycles, no one dies of a car crash.

re: all the guns – i don’t think it’s possible ( or right ) to seize people’s property. i do think it’s possible to introduce laws for licensing and insurance, locations for carry, gun shows sales, all that sort of thing. it would begin to bend the curve, and in 10-20 years things will get better. ( fwiw: it’s been 15 years since columbine. )

of course, that’s also probably sometime after we can print thermonuclear devices in the privacy of our own home, so there’s that. :wink:

So probably, there would only be three casualties. I’d say that’s a big difference.

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I’d argue that those stories are less poisonous than the morality plays where the Lone Hero With Gun magically sort out the Bad guys in a blaze of glory and everything turns out okay in the end.

For the record, if someone kills someone in the process of committing a felony (such as armed robbery), it is still reported as a homicide.

Justifiable homicides

Edit: Looks like @Mister44 and @catgrin already mentioned it. I’ll leave my post up though, because I think that the link to the various FBI crime stats is worth checking out.

The point wasn’t how it is supposed to be reported. Everyone knows how it is supposed to be reported. The point was bias. Bias, in this case, would mean knowing that it should be reported as homicide, but reporting it as armed robbery.

For whatever reason. I’m alleging “gerrymandering of the facts” but bias can creep in in a thousand different ways: antiquated computer coding systems, data getting repurposed, etc. So it doesn’t have to be an evildoer to introduce bias. But I am alleging there is monkey business.

Actually, I suspect that the BMW killer was as privileged (or probably more so) in terms of access to money, a free sports car, top schools, a university, Hollywood premieres etc. as Bush 2 or any US president ever was. Son of one of the Hollywood intelligentsia he had more freedom and more physical wealth than most Americans.

If you are measuring Bush 2’s bad decisions about invading Iraq and Afghanistan as the yardstick by which to consider an American popular culture that is at ease with military intervention, the extrajudicial execution of US citizens and prolonged incarceration without formal charges - you don’t need to look any further back the our incumbent (I’ll close Guantanamo in 1 year) president.

This is last time I’ll talk about this subject, you guys can reply all you like.

I wasn’t saying you shouldn’t support language evolution. I was specifically saying you shouldn’t support a certain type of language corruption, because it’s just misuse of language - not creative use. What the writer here on BB was doing wasn’t finding a new, interesting use of the term. He was making a “politickey” term. Much like people who add scientific terms used in inappropriate ways (that’s what “sciencey” is and why I gave you those related references) to their speech to lend credence to poor arguments with no true scientific weight of their own, he was using a political term incorrectly to lend supposed vocal weight to his bad argument.

As I wrote to him, even generalized, the term “gerrymandering” doesn’t correctly mean “fixed after the fact” which is what you’re doing if you’re opting after a crime occurs which way it is that you’ll record it (and if it’s not standardized due to corruption, as he implied, then it’s always happening after the fact). The term itself refers to putting in a political fix to assure a win BEFOREHAND. He was not, in any way, using the word correctly. “Cooking the books” isn’t the same as gerrymandering.

In your own example, making concerted, planned donations to cause certain types of research to be followed could be considered a type of “gerrymandering”. Like true political gerrymandering, it does force a later specific outcome. (However, you carefully failed to note that your own source never actually used the term. Only you did.) You may not agree with me, and think it’s fine to hyper-generalize terms, but think for a second about just why he used that term. He did it to lend supposed weight to an argument that really held no water whatsoever. His was, in reality, a failing argument - with no supporting evidence. There’s no real reason to support using words incorrectly to make bad arguments sound better than they actually are.

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Returning for a moment back to the original theme, before it became a gun prohibition advocacy thread. (Hint: there are murderers that use cars. A heavy SUV ran at full speed into a crowd can rack up higher count than puny seven; there are such cases. So why not focus instead on the factors that stimulate people’s aggressive tendencies? Solve or at least alleviate that, and everybody is better off. But no, the focus has to be on the effects instead on the causes. Meh,)

What was not mentioned here as a factor is the society’s fundamental suckiness in communicating clearly.

Sometimes you get to be an outsider. You don’t really fit in, your social relations are few and weak if any, the crowd is busy talking with each other and ignoring you pretty much regardless what you do. To add insult to injury, they soon start pairing off and being obnoxiously happy together. And it HURTS like hell. Even significant physical pain can be easier to bear.

So you spend the time outside staring at an empty box with painted face, halves of coconuts over your ears, turning knobs on the box and talking to it, sweep the long stretch of dirt and burn lights along it at nights, doing exactly what you see others doing that makes them successful, but no, the big birds that bring them nice things never appear on your island. What’s wrong? The shape of the box? The coconuts? The things you are saying to the box? But it must work somehow, you saw others doing the same things and the birds came in.

The social communication is mostly based on nonverbal cues. Which, when you are poor at recognizing them, and poor at recognizing faces/people in general, means you’re screwed. Royally screwed. Or, more accurately, not screwed. You do things by the book, looking for the expression changes described in literature, trying to make your own, and it goes a little off as even if you do your end right, the time for software emulation vs the hardwired circuitry that you don’t have and others do means that the timing is off. With the bulk of data you are guranteed to either outright not see or miss because of focusing to a subset you CAN see better, you end up seriously underperforming in comparison with others. And it is the comparison that matters, the relative score. Out of desperation you use some easily observable metrics - gaze tracking, eye contact length and count - to give you at least some interpretable data; and the data tell you that you quite don’t have to be there, that the people ignore you. Screwing with the variables you can influence won’t bring any statistically significant change in even such distant indicators.

And nobody tells you what’s wrong. Nobody. You are playing chess and can’t see the other players’ pieces. Then you end up checkmated on all the boards, and the patterns of your pieces vanishing are good enough at most to buy you a move or two more. But checkmate it is. Always. Regardless on the stakes; it is not only about getting laid, often it is just about social recognition, social validation. But no, you aren’t given even that. And nobody tells you why.

If you are smarter than the average, it gets sort of better and sort of worse. You get to talk with somebody occasionally, usually a male, which you don’t exactly want but better than nothing at all - and usually it is to solve some problem they have, usually of a technical nature. It feels good at first. Over the years the good feelings gradually wear off and buying the social time with knowledge doesn’t work for you anymore.

The social interaction is a highly complex state machine, with lots of feedback paths mediated with nonverbal cues, mostly visual. With diminished ability to read these, good luck navigating the pattern of the states. Even if you can, holding on to guesswork and checklists for conscious interpretation of the weak cues you should but aren’t processing subconsciously, it won’t get you far; you quickly get outcompeted by the nearest schmuck who not only doesn’t have to exert much effort but even enjoys it. Lots of work, to naught. Then, exhausted and feeling like a squeezed out lemon, you get home and read some easy book, like one of the Pattel’s electronic warfare ones, or some metallurgy. Easy reading, no plethora of characters to remember, no relationshippy messes to make sense of that only hurt you (yes, even these things can be “triggers” too when the subject gets too wounded over time). And try to have a chitchat with a girl about antenna radiation patterns in a bistatic radar jamming scenario, degradation of materials in space environment, or neutron-induced swelling in alloys, despite the inherent fascinating nature of the problematics; try it, I dare you. Exceptions exist, are rare and far between - and you get outcompeted there too, the chess game just lasts a few priceless moves longer.

Fast forward a decade or two. Of the same, day by day, year by year. Gradually you become bitter and disliking people - remember the social pain issue, the circuitry shared with physical pain processing that is triggered with feelings of social rejection. You get a pattern of torture inflicted to you by the rest of the society, with the society insisting it is their right to do so - and that they aren’t doing anything wrong when they don’t communicate in a way that’s at least somewhat readable. No way to get a post-mission debriefing, no way to get data that could make the next attempt an infinitesimally more probable to not fail. It gets more and more difficult to not hate the world.

Under this load, some withdraw; books are helpful here. Some commit suicide, others get on antidepressants (thank you, pharma). Some get the unlucky combination of variables external (socioeconomic environment) and internal (nature+nurture) that ends up with them getting embittered and hurt (remember the social pain factor?) enough to inevitably lash out and take out a few with them. The gym shooter from couple years back is another example (find the link yourself). And there will be more, gun bans or not.

The society will then refuse to accept their part in the mishap, put all the blame on one of the victims they call the perpetrator, focus on the late part of his plight where the fabric of his personality was already visibly unraveled and conveniently ignore their little and individually meaningless (and adding up) roles many many years earlier when the person in question was still easily “salvageable”, when a little acceptance and open and honest communication still could do a lot of good. No, this will never happen, and the same patterns will keep repeating. No, I don’t have a solution to suggest. But I just had to say something.

And to return back to the new theme, and to annoy some of the local hoplophobes, one final link:
http://www.cncguns.com/
…Because in every piece of metal there is a hidden precision part.

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There are an awful lot of unattached women at every age. Why don’t unattached men try dating them?

Because stereotypical men think conventionally-attractive women should want to go out with them, and won’t even look at women who wouldn’t rate an “8” or above on the conventional attractiveness scale.

Louis CK did an episode on this recently, where a lovely woman – who was about the same percentage overweight as he is – kept hitting on him in a really fun way, and he kept turning her down. It was nicely done.

It’s not that women won’t go out with men.  It’s that men won’t go out with women.

(Yes, I know this was a “what about the menz” post, but I still decided to respond)

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Partially true. However there is a minority for whom the main variable is brain (and personality); beauty wears off over years. (Is there a study wider than an anecdotal-evidence documentary?)

And good that you posted, it is a valid comment. Shows the society’s obsession with visual beauty/appearance over the more substantial parameters. Which is unfair. People choosing something just before it “looks good”, when the other parameters are sub-par, are something I don’t really understand.

…edit: also, what’s “menz”?

Respectfully, this seems to be a deliberate misunderstanding of how language works, in order to ‘be right’ on a point of very little import.

@awjt (with whom I disagree about many things) is using a rhetorical device called a “trope.” A trope is created by a writer when she uses, for example, metonymy to give new meaning to a term or phrase. For instance, if a commentator on this board had said, “lend me your ear,” you wouldn’t quibble with that writer on the meaning of the word ‘lend’. You would understand the general meaning of “lend” and apply it to your understanding of the sentence. In this case, gerrymander would be understood to have a general meaning of “moving things around for a political advantage”. By contrasting that with the word “facts” most folks on this board would understand @awjt to mean: politicians are moving data around for political advantage.

Schopenhauer FTW, Eristiche Dialektik indeed!

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I also dislike the gun “debate” response to these sprees, mostly because it usually isn’t a debate but devolves into a kind of recapitulation of idiot talking points from a Fox News pantomime, much like the “debate” over climate change.

It is significant to note, however, that mass carnage is more of a gun thing than a car or knife thing. Knifing doesn’t work well for keeping a spree going. In this case, the killer escalated to tools that gave him mobility and more killing potential. And his car stopped working pretty quickly when he began misusing it. Reloading a car requires GTA physics of not having an airbag and being able to trivially carjack an alternative. Saying that’s comparable to a gun is dumb.

Note that armies doing house-to-house in cities don’t just aim their automobiles (tanks and APCs) at the enemy, they have to use people wielding guns. Even though the glacis on an MBT can take a direct hit from most anti-tank weapons, the rest of all these vehicles are very fragile. In the aftermath, the way the post-war society polices its militias and paramilitaries (i.e. everyone with a gun) is more important than their stockpile of armored automobiles or bayonets.

So guns and clips are relevant to the discussion, mostly because that seemed to have been the intended outcome of this attack, a sick first-person-shooter fantasy at the Tri-Delts. The fact that he only killed three outside the house with his pistol might also say something about the fact that he only had ten-round magazines.

To your other point, maybe if this kid didn’t have essentially unfettered access to guns (which California’s law are, despite the “restrictions” the idiot-brigade is crowing about), he might have gotten to the later life stage where he was able to deal with his autism-spectrum difficulties.

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I guess I must be part of the idiot-brigade. It’s nice to be part of something. Can I be a Sargent?

Anyway - I think you’re naive if you think one can devise a system where no one would ever be able to slip through the cracks. He wasn’t officially on the radar to this point. Adding a licensing or registration scheme wouldn’t have thwarted him at this point because he wasn’t ever institutionalized or anything. No system is going to prevent someone who up until now hasn’t done anything wrong, and who is functioning well enough to jump through what ever hoops you devise. Note he had a wellness check and the cops thought he was fine. Never mind the fact that if he wanted to he could have gone via the black market.

As it stands, he had no felonies, no domestic abuse, no drug arrests, not committed or institutionalized - just like millions of other people, he looks normal on paper. He waited the mandatory waiting period, and even obeyed the magazine size restrictions. You can’t possibly read someones mind or predict future crime ala Minority Report.

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Stabbing can go pretty well. See e.g. the Osaka school massacre. See more here.

With a car you have pretty much one shot (unless you disable the airbags, which can be an easy wire snip), but with a crowd you can score high enough to get on par. One incident from eastern Europe from 1973 involves a truck, a crowd waiting for a tram, and there were 8 dead; the perpetrator wanted a revenge against the society, and was a female - which is atypical. One more victim than this shooting spree, four more if we don’t count the knife kills. There are more cases but this one was chosen because I remembered it enough for a single lookup. Details here. Score-wise it is pretty comparable to a gun.

You can get into a house by driving a tank in. Driving through a corner is a way to avoid blocked or mined road. True that tanks are rather fragile; the sides and especially the top are the softest spots. A RPG from a roof that hits the turret top, where the lids are, can do in a tank pretty quickly. Poof. As of troops going house by house, that’s why booby traps and IEDs are so important in MOUT (military operations in urban terrain). Also keep in mind the underground infrastructure; adversary can move around in sewers or infrastructure ducts, out of sight, and resurface at your back. Cities are a pretty unpleasant terrain to fight in - unless you’re the defender. (Then you are liable to be pounded flat with heavy weapons and aircraft bombing. So no clear win too.)

True re the post-war policing. Lots of guns out there. Don’t push people enough so they’d become willing to use them again. The keyword here is diplomacy; you won’t achieve much by brute force.

The fact he killed three people with multiple ten-round magazines shows he was a poor shot. No wonder; with adrenaline rush it is pretty hard to aim properly. Another point against gun danger, though a rather weak one.

The kid may or may not have flipped without access to guns. But as many other cases show, if the anger wants out, it will get out - guns or not. Maybe he’d get a grip on his problems. Maybe won’t - sometimes decades aren’t enough - and instead get way better in the art of death delivery. Focusing at the part when people want to get revenge, and avoiding that, can save more lives than demonizing guns. Because, face it, EVERYTHING is a weapon; walk through your local DIY store, look around with warrior’s eyes, and you’ll find yourself in the middle of an armory.

Luckily, in long term the aggressive tendencies in the society are declining. The unlucky part of that is that we are becoming less and less tolerant to perceived risks (while tolerating much bigger risks that became so common they don’t even hit the news anymore, and if, then as mere statistics). And even then the society applauds when symptoms are addressed rather than the underlying causes.