Really? What was that then?
6 Likes
“Positive male and female role models shouldn’t be limited to the direct parents. In fact, I wouldn’t say they’re sufficient if the culture around you is contradicting those roles.”
I agree. I don’t want my interpretation of “role models” to be limited to family, either.
2 Likes
What was what?
(And they are daft because, essentially, they are an immunizing theory: as formulated no evidence can possibly falsify the existence of microaggressions, and they explain equally well any observation. Popperian notions of falsification apply to social science as well.)
3 Likes
While it’s not even touched on in the article, I do think there’s times the line is a lot more gray than anyone’s ready to admit.
Once upon an eon, half a lifetime ago, I had a girlfriend who was incredibly apprehensive about her “first time”. Over the span of years, “the right time” seemed to appear over and over again, and each time, everything built up to a “no”. And, next paragraph aside, I’ve always been entirely clear on what “no” means. No. Stop. Not tonight. Not ambiguous at all.
Eventually she confided that she wanted me to be “more forceful”. That she said “no” because she was scared, but she fully realized the only way to get past that was to “rip the band-aid off”.
You can imagine how the story proceeds from there. What was a huge step forward in our relationship, was rape by the “black and white” definition. Neither of us saw it that way, but the very ambiguity still makes me uneasy.
Now, I’m not excusing anyone of anything - not even myself, hence the fresh account. But I’m willing to concede that very, very few things in life are entirely black and white.
4 Likes
Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.
Sure. But that’s different. You talked about it. It’s similar to people who get off on rape fantasies and, indeed, BDSM in general. No isn’t always no, but only by prior arrangement.
However, the situations she describes are nothing like that. And, again absent clear-headed agreement beforehand, consent to the start of sexual activity, does not imply consent going forward. Ignoring that is, to me quite obviously, wrong.
2 Likes
Yeah and Volga isn’t just a river in Russia.
Look, friend, I know you think you are scoring serious zingers, but you really, really are not. Speak plainly, please. My limited intellect is not up to the task of decoding the koan-riddles you seem to wish to communicate in.
2 Likes
It would be a fantastic thing if we could implement this in our country, but the way things are going, especially with a possible negative outcome from our upcoming election – anti-intellectualism may gain a stronger foothold – 
"because socialism".
4 Likes
It’s frustrating – do you want to reduce rape (including sexual “microaggressions”) AND teenage pregnancy AND unsafe sex AND abortion AND porn consumption? Because there are countries that do that. The only downsides are that you’ll also have to reduce stigma and give kids responsibility and ownership over their own bodies, as well as educating them about sex without pushing abstinence and providing free services that they feel comfortable using. You’ll also need to stop thinking of extramarital sex as the worst thing in the world or trying to ban everything that makes you uncomfortable. Unfortunately those things really are seen as big enough downsides to make it a dealbreaker for some people.
15 Likes
I think the article is arguing against that exact idea.
In my opinion, the underlying goal of feminist consent discourse is to make everyone understand that women are entitled to respect, which includes things like being listened to, having requests honored, and having one’s feelings considered. That’s really important.
There are many ways to disrespect women sexually, but the problem is we only really have one designation for all of them: rape (a.k.a. sexual assault, a.k.a. non-consensual sex). A lot of the debate around women being respected sexually has actually been a fight over which things get included in the category of rape. It’s an understandable approach: everyone agrees that rape isn’t OK, so the easiest way to express that a sexual behavior isn’t OK is to designate it as rape.
The problem is that by making the fight about rape/consent specifically, we’re unintentionally creating a dichotomy: rape is unconditionally forbidden, everything else passes without much controversy. And there are plenty of ways to sexually disrespect someone that aren’t rape.
We need ways of talking about sex and respect for women that go beyond consent/rape. I don’t want anyone who has been sexually disrespected to think to herself “It was shitty but i don’t think it was rape, so I guess I just need to get over it”.
9 Likes
You are describing a lot of my teens/20s. And I know I’m not alone in this, a lot of my friends (we’re all in our 40s now) would say that our early sexual experiences, if they were to happen nowadays… would be considered some flavour of sexual assault.
Its been creating a lot of conversations in my circles, as we see young people standing up for themselves in ways that we never felt we could. (see bolded bit above) But its also so disheartening to realize that in 20 years almost nothing has changed and guilt/coercion/bargaining/apathy are still blunt instruments used to badger sex out of someone.
But… there’s a bit in Michael Moore’s “Where to Invade Next” - where he goes to a sex ed class in France (?) and its all about consent, what your partner likes, what you like, how to ask, how to make it pleasurable for everyone. Kids looked 14/15. Stuff like that makes me hopeful.
14 Likes
I’ve no quarrel with that notion. My problem is that some of the examples in the article, specifically, don’t need a new category. They are, as far as can be determined, just rape, plain and simple.
See, my point is this: While women have the absolute right to expect respect and consideration, this expectation may occasionally be betrayed: sometimes because the partner is thoughtless, sometimes because of honest error, and sometimes because the partner is an evil scumbag. The way to secure oneself against this betrayal is the power of no: It is well accepted and understood that, whatever the subtle interplay of body language and give and take of sex, a woman can always unambiguously withdraw consent. Once she has done so, nothing more can be expected of her, and the onus is absolutely on her partner to respect that no. If they do not, they are rapists. Because ignoring a lack of consent is rape. To act otherwise is to minimize the act, to the common detriment of us all.
Situations where there’s no lack of consent, however, are worth talking about, but they can only be resolved with the Universal Sex Ed Mantra of communicate, communicate, communicate. People are largely good, and so it is likely that terrible sub-rape experiences are the cause of stupidity, miscomunication, and the mother of all fuckups, assumption. This is easily resolved if the people involved will but talk to each other. Perhaps Sex Ed should be about that, most of all.
Yeah, some people will manipulate and emotionally hurt people to get sex. These people are assholes. Yes, it’s not rape, and no, they can’t be put in prison because they are assholes, but dying alone because nobody will put up with them is a fitting enough punishment.
And, yeah, this does seem as if I’m putting a lot of responsibility onto women, doesn’t it? They have to say ‘no,’ they have to communicate their desires, they have to dump the assholes. And true enough, I am. But women are grownups. They’ve moral agency. Nobody else can do these things for them, and even if someone can, that would be the ultimate disrespect: treating them as one would children unable to make their own decision. That’s brutally sexist and I can’t imagine there’s a woman born who’d put up with it.
1 Like
So… its “women’s” responsibility to teach “men” NOT to be boundary pushing assholes… by dumping them and saying no more often? Thats it? Thats your solution?
6 Likes
No, it’s their absolute responsibility to set boundaries, it’s their partner’s absolute responsibility to respect them. And vice versa. This is a task nobody else can do for them, not without demeaning them.
Sure there can be some support from society: we can all unite in punishing severely those who transgress clearly stated boundaries, and we can offer education to all in the importance of respect and communication.
Why, what’s your solution? You’ve something better?
1 Like
Did you read the article? Or the companion article about Adam on the show “Girls”? Because the articles talk a lot of grey area and you’re talking a lot of black and white.
My solution is not to victim blame, and not force women say “no” but teach everyone how to say “yes”. My solution would be much like what @jsroberts is saying (here or in another thread I’m not sure). An educational and cultural revolution the likes of which our north american puritanical society would never accept… at least not in my life time. I can hope, and Europe makes me hopeful, (and Ontarios new sex ed also makes me hopeful) but putting the blame and responsibility squarely on women is not hopeful, and seems to me to be “brutally sexist”.
9 Likes
I have! I even quoted it in my original post.
Because the articles talk a lot of grey area and you’re talking a lot of black and white.
My whole point was that what the article proffered as grey area was largely black. And, by extension, that a lot of grey areas (though not all) would with the application of a little bit of light turn out to be a lot more defined and a lot less fuzzy.
My solution is not to victim blame, and not force women say “no” but teach everyone how to say “yes”. My solution would be much like what @jsroberts is saying (here or in another thread I’m not sure). An educational and cultural revolution the likes of which our north american puritanical society would never accept… at least not in my life time. I can hope, and Europe makes me hopeful, (and Ontarios new sex ed also makes me hopeful)
Oh, I am sorry, if that’s the plausibility threshold for a solution, then by all means, my solution is for everyone on Earth to become kind and empathetic and for consent and mutual joy to be foremost on everyone’s mind, meaning that the problem is gone forever and nothing further should be said about it.
I don’t have any earthly clue how that wonderful state of affairs could be brought about, of course, but then again, neither do you for yours. The world is imperfect and achingly unfair. My opinion stated above is predicated on these sad facts. If things are to be better—for everyone—than those possessing of agency and strength have to accept certain responsibilities. So it goes.
but putting the blame
Blame?
I mentioned blame?
If I did, it must have been a typo.
I’m not blaming anyone but the people who disrespect the autonomy of others.
and responsibility
Responsibility is a completely different kettle of fish from blame. Anyone with moral agency has responsibilities and, yeah, those responsibilities can be onerous. We spare those too weak, too incapable from those responsibilities, sure, but women, much like men, and much like people of genders not covered by linguistic convention, are strong, capable, and have the twin rights and responsibilities to manage their lives.
squarely on women
Squarely, but not solely. Why should women not be responsible? Do you think them incapable? Unworthy?
I don’t. Oh, sure, if you got by nineteenth century ideas of gender, of women as fragile flowers of gentle docile beauty and all that gibberish, sure, but we are past that, are we not? We are past thinking that women simply can’t fight for themselves the poor dears, and have to have someone else take charge of their life? We should be, as a culture.
Everyone in a relationship, no matter their gender identity, has a right and an obligation to make their will known, just as they have the right to expect that will to be respected. One goes with another.
is not hopeful
It did not occur to me that it was supposed to be.
and seems to me to be “brutally sexist”.
Look, I can see how you might not agree with my notion that capacity implies responsibility—there are ethical stances different from mine—but claiming in no uncertain terms that people of all gender identities have the same dignity the same rights, capacities, and obligations… how is this sexist?
2 Likes
Not gonna reply after this and we can agree to disagree so I’ll say this: saying that person needs to do X to prevent Y happening to them is in fact blaming all people who have Y happen to them but did NOT do X, for Y happening to them.
And as someone that has experienced a world of greys, I have to say I envy your black and white world. Seems nice.
9 Likes
Personal anecdote;
A few years back I failed to double check that my door was locked on my way out to work that morning.
A few hours later, I found out that the autolock hadn’t engaged at all, via my landlord calling me with the news that my apartment had been burgled.
Now, by the fallacious reasoning you alluded to above, someone could draw the conclusion that it was “my own fault that I got robbed.”
Here’s the problem with that logic, though; it completely fails to take into account the culpability of the perp that robbed me.
Just because it was made less difficult via my own negligence, doesn’t mean that the perp was then somehow not guilty of the crime of theft.
Just like if someone accidentally leaves their keys in the ignition of their car; that doesn’t mean that’s an automatic ‘license’ to drive off in it without their permission.
The mere opportunism of the offending party does not negate their misdeeds or crimes, in any way, shape or form.
17 Likes
Just a few more likes/hearts for you.
5 Likes
Aw, shucks.
Right back at cha…
7 Likes
