Super Seducer is a Playstation/Steam game where players grab women's "boobs" and "asses"

[Mindysan33]

it still condones and encourages harassment and treating women like objects.

[AndreStmaur]

@Celandine_Crane

You don’t know what to say because you can’t actually answer my question.
But hey, go ahead, make a sweeping generalisation about a gender; that’s a great way to behave.

Everyone knows “women” are so alike that you can state universal truths that apply to the entire set. Right…?

At the begining of this year, when the “meetoo” hashtag was at its peak, a collective of 100 women asked the french newspaper “Le Monde” to publish an open letter about the “freedom to disturb”. The text is here (in French, and requires pay):

Catherine Deneuve : « Nous défendons une liberté d’importuner,...

Their main argument was that this freedom was a necessary component of sexual liberation.

I have no personal opinion one way or the other. I am too old to play the “pick up artist” and I don’t generally try to chat women in the street or try to start relationships at work. But the fact that these 100 women, most of them prominently known, took the effort to publish an open letter in one of the most respected newspaper in their country is an indication that indeed not all women agree on the subject.

[Mindysan33]

So our choices are, apparently, put up with being harassed or we don’t get sexual freedom? Because you realize that women in countries where there is no “sexual liberation” are also routinely harassed?

At some point, men are going to have to deal with the fact that WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS and ARE ENTITLED TO BODILY AUTONOMY. No. they are wrong that sexual liberation doesn’t mean that men get to say whatever the want to us, at any time. No, not at all. The problem is not with women. The problem is with men who refuse to stop treating women like objects.

[AndreStmaur]

@Mindysan33

So our choices are, apparently, put up with being harassed or we don’t get sexual freedom? Because you realize that women in countries where there is no “sexual liberation” are also routinely harassed?

I never said that, I only cited an open letter written by women.

@Mindysan33

At some point, men are going to have to deal with the fact that WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS and ARE ENTITLED TO BODILY AUTONOMY. No. they are wrong that sexual liberation doesn’t mean that men get to say whatever the want to us, at any time. No, not at all. The problem is not with women. The problem is with men who refuse to stop treating women like objects.

I can certainly agree that treating women like objects is deeply wrong.

[Mindysan33]

@AndreStmaur

I only cited an open letter written by women.

Amazingly women can disagree on this topic. The letter is wrong.

@AndreStmaur

I can certainly agree that treating women like objects is deeply wrong.

This game does not, many men do not. Part of the disagreement on this thread has been whether or not this game merely reinforces the objectification of women or whether it helps alleviate it… I think it helps reinforce it, you’re general responses here have leaned towards believing that it’s not doing so (maybe I’m wrong on that point).

[AndreStmaur]

@Mindysan33

@AndreStmaur

I only cited an open letter written by women.

Amazingly women can disagree on this topic. The letter is wrong.

Yes, but the fact that they disagree is there. They are women, most of them are old enough to remember the time before sexual revolution. I would not dismiss their opinion without trying to understand it, which I do not think I do.

@Mindysan33

@AndreStmaur

I can certainly agree that treating women like objects is deeply wrong.

This game does not, many men do not. Part of the disagreement on this thread has been whether or not this game merely reinforces the objectification of women or whether it helps alleviate it… I think it helps reinforce it, you’re general responses here have leaned towards believing that it’s not doing so (maybe I’m wrong on that point).

I did not say that either. On the contrary, it would seem to me that any pick-up method builds on the idea that women should be treated as objects for the gratification of men.

[Mindysan33]

@AndreStmaur

They are women, most of them are old enough to remember the time before sexual revolution.

My point is that it’s not either/or, as they seem to suggest. The sexual revolution was a mixed bag, in terms of changes it brought for women. It became, more often than not, women STILL doing double duty (child care, being responsible for men’s sexuality) while still having to struggle for basic respect in the public sphere.

@AndreStmaur

, it would seem to me that any pick-up method builds on the idea that women should be treated as objects for the gratification of men.

Okay. But if you believe that, at least some of your comments here aren’t clear on that point, which is why you got some backlash from other posters.

[AndreStmaur]

@Mindysan33

@AndreStmaur

They are women, most of them are old enough to remember the time before sexual revolution.

My point is that it’s not either/or, as they seem to suggest. The sexual revolution was a mixed bag, in terms of changes it brought for women. It became, more often than not, women STILL doing double duty (child care, being responsible for men’s sexuality) while still having to struggle for basic respect in the public sphere.

That is what I have read as well.

@Mindysan33

@AndreStmaur

, it would seem to me that any pick-up method builds on the idea that women should be treated as objects for the gratification of men.

Okay. But if you believe that, at least some of your comments here aren’t clear on that point, which is why you got some backlash from other posters.

It seems that here as about everywhere on the Internet, many people have a “us against them” mentality. That makes it difficult for someone who is more interested in finding the reason behind the facts than in following the crowd. On top of that, this site is extremely US-centric and I don’t live in the USA. But I am old enough to have a pretty thick skin.

[Mindysan33]

@AndreStmaur

many people have a “us against them” mentality

Frankly, this is the problem, but it’s not the posters here on this topic who are thinking this way - it’s the men who continue to double down on their masculine BS, because they continue to believe untrue things about women and sexuality (and no, I’m not suggesting that you are arguing that, I understand that you’re not). I also don’t think the problem of women continuing to be treated as object is a US only problem.

[AndreStmaur]

@Mindysan33

@AndreStmaur

many people have a “us against them” mentality

Frankly, this is the problem, but it’s not the posters here on this topic who are thinking this way - it’s the men who continue to double down on their masculine BS, because they continue to believe untrue things about women and sexuality (and no, I’m not suggesting that you are arguing that, I understand that you’re not). I also don’t think the problem of women continuing to be treated as object is a US only problem.

I am sure it is not a US only problem. Harassment in French streets is fairly common, for example.

[Mindysan33]

Sure, I have no doubt. So I’m unsure why you think that the fact that many people here are from the US is a problem with regards to the issue? If it’s universal as a problem, I’d think that the debate wouldn’t be nationally constituted.

[AndreStmaur]

@Mindysan33

Sure, I have no doubt. So I’m unsure why you think that the fact that many people here are from the US is a problem with regards to the issue? If it’s universal as a problem, I’d think that the debate wouldn’t be nationally constituted.

It may not be universal. Street harassment is rare in Germany for example.