The impossible 18th-century gay bars of London

[boingboing]

Originally published at: The impossible 18th-century gay bars of London | Boing Boing

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[anothernewbbaccount]

Good golly, Miss Molly,
Sure like to ball.

[KathyPartdeux]

It does raise the question of whether they were transgender. As many presented as woman outside of the bar.

[Mindysan33]

Could be! But of course, their own understanding and language around their identity would be different from ours… I’m sure someone has done some work around this topic in queer studies.

[KathyPartdeux]

I did find similar arrests at a bar in Philly in 1703.

[Mindysan33]

Interesting!

[GagHalfrunt]

@KathyPartdeux

It does raise the question of whether they were transgender. As many presented as woman outside of the bar.

One of the articles linked in the OP says:

Without personal testimonies or accounts, we must tread lightly when assigning 21st-century terms to 18th-century culture. The descriptions we do find of the ‘mollies’ and the activities which transpired at Molly Houses does hint at a cross-dressing or drag culture, with some suggestion of trans identities. The events and men we have found in the 18th-century echo through the centuries from the underground clubs of the 20s to the police raids on gay night clubs in the 60s.

18th Century Molly Houses – London’s Gay Subculture

[KathyPartdeux]

But we’re perfectly comfortable assuming their behavior and identities as gay?

Seems inconsistent.

[KathyPartdeux]

Some old City Hall court documents. Only a few survived from that time as the clerk was burning them to start the fireplace.

[GagHalfrunt]

The question then is what modern terms, if any, would be appropriate and not too speculative for people described in contemporary sources as “sodomites”.

[KathyPartdeux]

Queer would include more possibilities and not fall into that trap. Also - lots of arrests for cross dressed women back then - it wasn’t called sodomy if they had sex with women. Though many had sex with men. And those cross dressed folk from Philadelphia?

Some were women and some were married couples.

[euansmith]

Kaz Rowe’s youtube channel has a bunch of well presented videos on Queer culture over the decades. I’m certain there are others, too; but Kaz has ended up on my subscription list.