The juggalos, class struggle, and the left




I think this is an excellent and oft overlooked point (and really I could’ve quoted your entire comment.) Fascism presents many faces to the world, and like no two fascist governments have been identical, none of the modern iterations are clones either and that understanding is crucial in combating fascism as a whole.

I’ve posted the essay below in the past, and I’ll repost it here because for me, it represents a crucial sort of base calculus for understanding the different faces of fascism.

Ur-Fascism, Umberto Eco


Very interesting, real TIL stuff, thanks.




That presents a relatively interesting point as well. It was suggested or claimed for a long time that classic European fascism “didn’t work” or couldn’t gain a toe hold in the US. And if you look at the history of open fascism here that looked plausible. Most of the fascist movements here were not particularly successful electorally. Lacked the populist or nationalist focus. Remained fringe movements. Or had fairly unique features tied directly to things like Jim Crow era US racial politics that didn’t present themselves elsewhere. There was this sort of early burst of fascism here, and it didn’t make it through the world wars particularly well. With prominent fascists and sympathizers having their reputations tarnished by it, rather than managing to bring it legitimacy (think Charles Lindbergh). Post WWII true and open fascist movements here remained decidedly fringe. Which is not to say there was a lack of fascistic ideas, politics or crypto-fascism here. You just didn’t see the sort of persistent, politically influential movements that have plagued Europe. And there were key ideological differences between fascism here and fascism abroad.

One of the more interesting things with the Alt-Right. Is that its really been the first European style, and directly European connected Fascist movement to gain this level of influence since the 20’s. Think Farange campaigning for Trump. However much the roots of the ideology are clearly in the American Hard Right, that whole Techno-Libertarian thing, and the right wing medias conspiracy theory obsessions. Its wound up in a place that’s very similar. In many ways identical to Fascist and far right movements that have existed in Europe for a very, very long time. Even their white supremacy is characteristically different than the usual American strain. Less about murdering blacks and the south will rise again. Than it is a white genocide, and who’s woman has been spoiled by Muslim cock.




Two things. First the South was a model the Nazi’s looked to in regards to race. And perhaps on a cultcha ‘n’ hertage level thanks to that whole lost cause ideology thing that became huge during the 2nd clan period. But there wasn’t much political similarity between the two. And ultimately Hitler went with eradication over subjugation. As much as the Nazis were fans of forced labor that was more of a slow, productive execution than economic linch pin. Jim crow was definitely an influence and inspiration on the Nuremberg laws. But the Nazi’s went a Fuck load farther and harder.

Second this interwar period represents the only true flourishing of fascist movements in the US. Prewwi you were looking at the early rise and codification of fascism. Leading through the war and into the depression you had clashes between the labor movement, socialist ET Al and fascists the rise of the second clan and major anti immigrant wave. That was the last period where the American far right really resembled the far right in Europe. And had direct ties to it. The success of the labor movement here, The new deal. And the enthusiastic fight against Hitler and European fascism are what purportedly turned the US resolutely away from European style fascism and ethnonationalism forever. Too much of our national identity became tied up in those things for such ideologies to really pass muster here.

Which is why it’s not * at all* curious that our current political moment is starting to so closely mirror that era. Massive anti immigrant moments and racial purity movements. Talk of preserving cultures from outside influences. And the symbols left from it, like confederate statues. Are becoming topics of debate and the sites of violent clashes. All that same ideological fuel has come back to the fore. With the same international ties.


I’m pretty sure that Juggalos are also not known for unarmed combat…

The “official” info from the ICP said to leave hatchets etc… at home, but whether or not they actually do…


That is just soooo beautiful! :joy:


I’m not actually trying to argue against what you’re saying, BTW.

I think that this is an interesting facet to explore, though.

So, while I get my thoughts together to write something, one more old bit for the benefit of the peanut gallery:

Also: @Mindysan33, I’d be interested in hearing your take on this stuff.


Hardly ever true.

However, the enema of my enemy may well be my little snigger.

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Kind of beyond the point but dude is pretty confused about Guam. It’s not in Latin America (rather Micronesia) The natives are pacific islanders not Latinos. And it’s not yet a state because they haven’t even begun the process for statehood. More recent pushes were for common wealth status similar to Puerto Rico’s.

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He’s not confused about guam, you just didn’t read it closely. He lumps guam in with PR not because of geography but because of how they are both US territories. Guam was subject to american colonialism, like the phillipines (which he also mentions) first being spanish colonized and then taken over by the US. We just didn’t make the PI into a territory like the way we did guam.


Apparently as a good and proper thing as long as the elites are representative of all protected classes of people.


I don’t compare the Nazis to Jim Crow; I compare them to the dreams of the Confederacy. They were both aggressively expansionist imperial states based upon racial supremacy, extreme patriarchy, slavery, murder and the suppression of the working class. The Confederates had plans to create an empire of slavery stretching to the Straits of Magellan.

I do see a large political similarity between the two.

See above; I view the Confederacy as proto-fascists. And, unlike Germany, the USA was never properly deNazified. The Compromise of 1877 killed any chance of that.

From that perspective, the USA has had a substantial fascist influence upon its politics all the way back to the 3/5ths Compromise. The Slave Power conspiracy. The Confederacy. The Klan. Jim Crow. The Business Plot. America First. Operation Paperclip. Patton’s resistance to German deNazification. Nixon. McCarthy.

It’s why American socialism has been historically suppressed to an exceptional degree.

I think that the virally networked nature of the 21st century is causing a convergence of global fascism. The Americans are getting more European, the Europeans are getting more American.

The struggle in America isn’t USA vs Russia, or even Americans vs Trump. It’s fascism vs everybody.


Thanks for this. All I can add is that the unspoken endgame of fascism always seems to be a sort of neo-feudalism, a politcal/economic/cultural return to the bad old days before the 18th century Enlightenment (which is why wealthy Dark Enlightenment and neoreactionary types like Peter Thiel and actual autocrats like Putin support the global alt-right as a whole). They may not all want a return to institutional sexism, aristocracy/extreme economic inequality, slavery and serfdom, anti-Semitism, religious and sectarian warfare, provincial xenophobia and racism, rule by strongmen (thugs and/or corporate robber barons), and other aspects of feudalism, but they all want at least one of those things really badly. Even more than racism, it is this general retrograde impulse that binds these movements together.



I am a careless dispenser of cheap platitudes.